[Jeff L]

I have a 5 month old Australian Shepard puppy. I started him on Carna4 and he has zero gas, but did have soft poop with undigested kibble. He also will eat his own poop if left alone. One last week I decided to try Orijen Puppy and he loves it, but I’m still seeing undigested kibble. I don’t mind spending money on top foods, but I have never seen this in any other dog I have had with some awful brands. Any thoughts??

[anonymously]

/forums/search/Coprophagia/

I have had a dog or two over the years that was a feces eater (coprophagia)

The only thing I found that worked, was to follow them around with a pooper scooper when you think they are due for a bowel movement, scoop and discard immediately, out of sight out of mind. After awhile they stop turning around to look for it. In my experience, it doesn’t matter what you feed them. Sometimes puppies will out grow this nasty habit as they mature. It is what it is. You cannot let these dogs alone with their feces.

Has the vet ruled out medical issues?
http://www.petplace.com/article/dogs/behavior-training/behavior-problems/coprophagia-in-dogs

PS: Do not free feed. Feed at the same time, twice a day and you will be able to predict when the dog will have a BM.
If he doesn’t finish after 10 minutes pick up the food, store in the fridg, and offer at the next mealtime.

Regarding the undigested kibble, is he wolfing down his food? Eating too fast? Get him one of those stainless steel dome bowls that are designed to slow him down, you could find one online, most pet supply stores carry them. Are you mixing with a soft food? Maybe that would help. Or a topper like a little scrambled egg or chopped up cooked lean chicken/meat, ground turkey…mixed in. Then you could just use the kibble as a base and use a little less of it.

You could pre-soak the kibble a little, hard kibble doesn’t clean teeth, brushing the teeth every day does, now would be a good time to start, YouTube has some “how to” videos.
Most dogs don’t drink enough water anyway, so I would add a splash.

Orijen is my current favorite, it does have hard solid kibble and keep in mind it is higher in calories than some other brands. I also like Nutrisca which has smaller kibble, I’ve been mixing them together with good results and may continue to do so.
My neighbor’s dog does well on Fromm, medium sized kibble.

[Scared D]

Try Pro Plan Sport and don’t get bullied by the so-called pet food experts into using a bunch of glamour foods. It is unusual to find undigested kibble but puppies have very immature and inefficient digestive systems.

I would speak to your vet about this. It has nothing to do with eating fast.

[anonymously]

I agree, mention this to your vet (I am assuming medical issues have been ruled out)
But, I am thinking that trying a smaller kibble or pre-soaking and adding some wet food might solve the problem. And eating slower will help, obviously.

Remember, no one is here in a professional capacity, opinions are being offered, not to be confused with medical advice by a veterinary healthcare specialist.

I used to think the supermarket dog foods were okay. I pre-soaked a middle of the road kibble and it turned into mush/sawdust. I presoaked a couple of the more expensive brands that I mentioned in a previous post and they stayed firm, just softened a bit……..solid food.
My veterinarian agrees with me. I don’t think all cheap dog foods are harmful, just, of lesser quality.
That’s why I like to use the kibble as a base and add something.

[Scared D]

So what does soaking food in water prove? Nothing…..why do you even mention it.

How many professionals use Pro Plan??? How about nearly everyone….have you cared to look?

[anonymously]

Soaking kibble (any kibble) makes the food softer and easier to digest, less work for the stomach to do. Kibble tends to swell in the stomach. So this also lowers the risk for bloat to occur and adds moisture to the diet.
I have no problems with any specific dog foods. I am simply sharing my experience as to what has worked for my pets.

[Jeff L]

Its usually 1-2 pieces a day. He does eat fast sometimes. I have also been giving him flax oil and coconut oil so I’m going to stop that and see if that firms up his poop and helps his digestion. There doesn’t seem to be any medical issues. He has never thrown up or had diarrhea just softer poop sometimes, but not all the time. I have been brushing his teeth since the day I brought him home even when he had puppy teeth. I’m not overly concerned, but I would like the poop slightly firmer and maybe that will come with age. Thanks for the responses. As far as the poop eating, that is only at my parents when he goes back outside. I’m assuming because he isn’t digesting the food completely that is why he likes to eat it. He won’t touch other dogs poop though. He has only been on Orijen for about a week so I will see how he responds without the extra oils.

[Elinor M]

Only need to give Coconut oil (about 1/2-1 tsp per feeding) and maybe the addition of fiber (oat bran, about 1 tsp per feeding). No need to brush teeth if giving raw chicken wings (cut in half depending on size of dog). I raw feed and mix with kibble (3/4 cup kibble and remainder raw ground meat or ground turkey and also oftentimes add some sardines [omegas], mashed unadulterated sweet potatoes [about 1 lg soup spoon] and plain low fat yogurt [Fage brand is the best there is] and sometimes blueberries [about 1/2 cup per feeding once/wk] and sometimes 1/2 banana cut into chunks, other times steamed green beans, or steamed frozen peas, they like carrots too but must be cooked to soft stage, sometimes steamed cauliflower or chopped spinach and try to remember to top whatever I fix with Cilantro [detox]. My dogs are 6 mo old, eat 3 meals per day (until they’re 1 yr old). Sometimes I only give them couple chicken wings for mid-day meal and they seem to do real well. I also add to their meals twice/day Transfer Factor Canine Formula for all the nutrients I’m not able to provide by raw/kibble feeding. It’s expensive but lasts a really really long time between my 2 dogs which are: A Red Haired Golden Retriever and a German Shorthaired Pointer who are both very very active and healthy and have soft coats and clear eyes and very very white teeth (from the bones which contain calcium). Sometimes I also put a raw egg into their food which they love (using only some of the egg shell for the calcium which I sort of hand pulverize). Golden Retriever has been spayed and recovered completely in 2 days. German Shorthair Pointer will be spayed tomorrow 6/6/16 so am believing she’ll recover as quickly. In closing, if anyone’s dog gets diarrhea, give the dog 1 T Organic Canned Pumpkin or the supplement called Slippery Elm (1 cap for med size dog and 1/2 cap for smaller size [1 cap = 1/2 tsp….dump it out of capsule onto a largish piece of cheese and roll the whole thing up and feed that to the dog), Also might mention I fix all my own dog treats which is easy to do and they simply love them.

[Elinor M]

Almost forgot that I put chicken broth on the kibble for the liquid it provides as kibble has none and its been cooked out anyway at the factory. Think they’re spoiled dogs…..they don’t think so.

[Scared D]

Food has no impact on bloat risk, none, nothing, not ever…soaking food will do nothing. It is just an amateurs myth.

OP, Stop giving your dog coconut oil, it has no benefit and can easily cause loose stools because it isn’t digested in the lower GI.

Don’t supplement a growing puppy with anything, nothing….

[Jeff L]

If not giving him CO firms up his poop then I have no problem not giving it to him. I will just bathe him in it to give me the coat benefit that I thought I was getting and rub it on his pads.

[anonymously]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=coconut+oil

I find this site helpful.

[Lori H]

I am not disputing any content on this post or on skeptvet.com at all. I would like to mention something this makes me think of that happened to me just to add to this discussion. I have been very disappointed in the human medical community’s lack of knowledge of the human species as a whole “being” and not just something that you prescribe meds to and get them in and out the door as quickly as possible. I have just recently seen this same trend in veterinarian practices and that has caused me to educate myself more and seek other alternative methods. Until I can find an equivalent for my animals that I found in a Functional Medicine Doctor (MD, not Naturopath) in an Integrative Therapy Practice that takes a Holistic approach to treatment, I will have to continue to question, poke, prod and research anything a Veterinarian tells me. This practice saved my life with my own medical doctor, no exaggerations here, depending on traditional medicine was killing me. I am afraid that depending on traditional veterinarians may kill my animals.

For my animals, I have had 3 cases now where I took what a vet told me at face value and my three DIFFERENT animals with DIFFERENT conditions paid the price for that bad medical advice. I will not again assume that vets know everything. Yes, we have to do the best we can as lay-people. Unfortunately, that sometimes means we also make mistakes. I say all of this to say don’t try everything you read, but don’t stop reading and researching. Be well informed. Ask questions. If a vet shuts you down on your questions, maybe move on to a more open vet…….if a vet just wants to prescribe antibiotics and “see what happens”, maybe that isn’t the best “diagnostic tool” (smh) for your pet…….if a vet doesn’t even ask you what your pet is eating or what their activities include in a day, does that make you wonder what the heck they are even basing their decisions on?

[Jeff L]

I’ve thought about trying raw diet, but its pretty overwhelming at the moment. A full 36 hours since stopping flax and coconut oil and his poop is much firmer and easier to pick up with no undigested kibble in it. I have fed my dogs coconut oil for as long as I can remember without having a problem. I also read that it helps with fleas and I never want to give my dog the poisonous flea meds. I have never had a dog with fleas so I always attributed it to the CO. Plus it has always made their coats, skin and pads very soft.

[Lori H]

Jeff L. have you fed it to puppies before? I wonder if his younger digestion system is having trouble with it? (and I wouldn’t stop CO if it has always worked for you, just maybe this one dog can’t tolerate it) maybe he just has a sensitivity to it

[Lori H]

btw I am sure you know this from your research but you have to be so careful with raw diet. Doing it wrong can be deadly. So if you feel overwhelmed, honor that.

[InkedMarie]

ROFL@professionals? professional what? You don’t need to be a professional anything to have an opinion on dog food. Scared D thinks one food is great; it’s so-so for me.

To the OP: your dog can’t eat poop if you pick it up as soon as he goes (speaking as the owner of many a poop eater LOL)

[Jeff L]

I haven’t given him any oils for 2 days and his poop was very firm today. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. I will try to add some CO back not his diet in a few days. With either Carna4 or Orijen he has tons of energy and his coat is beautiful even in his ugly phase, but I’m sure CO has something to do with that. I was probably giving him 2 TBSP. between Flax and CO which was probably too much.

As far as raw goes, I really don’t want to do it just because it much harder to travel while feeding raw and I’m pretty lazy. As far as eating poop, that only happens at my parents when I’m not picking up right after him like I would be at my apt.

[Shawna]

Jeff L – I tend to agree with you that the poop eating is due to the undigested food. Adding enzymes may help with that but may not as well.

Flax oil has ALA omega 3 fatty acids but not the more beneficial DHA / EPA fatty acids found in foods like sardines and salmon. I do know of a few pups that have issues with flax, causing stool issues. That said, I know one that has issues with coconut oil. I agree with your thoughts on eliminating both and then adding back in (one at a time) to see if there is a change. If flax oil is problematic and you want to give supplemental sources of omega 3, try tinned sardines packed in water.

Despite what some say, pre-soaking the kibble in a small amount of liquid can be beneficial in that it can help to generate hydrochloric acid (which helps break the food down). Water is needed for proper production of hydrochoric acid. Hydrochloric acid, in turn, activates the protein digesting enzyme called pepsin in the stomach which breaks down the protein eaten. Young well hydrated puppies usually do not have issues with this though so I lean more towards something medically wrong — maybe as simple as a sensitivity to the flax or coconut oil?

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Shawna.

[Scared D]

Coconut oil at a certain level is a great laxative. It is not digested by pancreatic enzymes so much of the fat simply passes through the GI. That is why your dog had soft stools.

Don’t supplement any fat because you will just imbalance the Omegas. Too much Omega 3 can cause skin crud and can also deplete Vitamin E, even to a dangerous level. Despite what you read, Omega 6 is the best fat for coat quality anyway not Omega 3’s.

Just feed Dr. Tim’s or Abady and you don’t have to worry.

[Jeff L]

So far he is firming up on just Orijen so I will keep him on this unless things change. Plus he likes it.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Jeff L.

[Shawna]

Hi Scared D,

I absolutely agree that excess coconut oil can have an impact on the stool but the reason it is not digested by pancreatic enzymes is because they are not necessary for it’s digestion. The majority of coconut oils fatty acids, when consumed in appropriate amounts by a healthy subject, are absorbed in the stomach before hitting the small intestines. This makes it suitable, in appropriate amounts, for a dog with pancreatitis as an example.

I agree that omega 6 fatty acids (specifically linoleic acid) are the fats most beneficial for the coat. Coconut oil, however, is a poor source of omega fatty acids but the tiny amount it does have is omega 6. The majority of the fatty acids in coconut oil are medium chain triglycerides – specifically lauric, caprylic and capric acids.

[Shawna]

Orijen is a great food, Jeff!! I use it in my rotation with my crew and foster dogs.

[Jeff L]

I started to add 1 teaspoon of CO today just to see its effects. I was giving at least a TBSP before so that might have been too much for him, but I really think the flax oil was the main contributor since I think that is when his stools became the most inconsistent. I have cut the flax out completely.

[Scared D]

Please Shawna listen to me. The reason why coconut oil causes soft stools is the same reason mineral oil causes soft stools. Ok?

Too much fat will cause soft stools no matter what the source, especially in puppies.

[Shawna]

Hi Scared D,

I’m not suggesting in any way that an excess of, even healthy, fats in the diet of a dog that isn’t used to higher amounts of dietary fat can not cause an issue. Heck changing the diet at all in a dog that is not used to dietary change can cause stool issues.

“It is not digested by pancreatic enzymes so much of the fat simply passes through the GI.” I am however saying this statement is partially incorrect. You are correct in that the majority of coconut oil is not digested by pancreatic enzymes however it does not simply pass through the GI as it is mostly digested and absorbed in the stomach. From there it, the medium chain triglycerides, goes to the liver where it is converted to ketone bodies and used as energy. I am also suggesting that lots of dogs have coconut oil added to their diets without issue, including puppies. Puppies have a higher dietary requirement for fats than do adult dogs as shown by the AAFCO nutrient profiles.

I’m not suggesting that the coconut oil wasn’t the issue with Jeff’s dog but I am saying that added coconut oil, in appropriate amounts, is well tolerated by many dogs.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Shawna.

[theBCnut]

Mineral oil causes soft stools because it is not digested at all, not because of excess. There is more than one mechanism at play when it comes to oils in the diet and soft stools.

[Jeff L]

Well all of his stools have been firmer even with the addition of the CO. It was either the flax oil or the Carna4 itself. I’m leaning towards the C4 because his stools have always been soft since I started him on C4 at 12 weeks.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Jeff L.

[Jeff L]

Just over a week of changing his for from Carn4 to Orijen, his stool has firmed up nicely with no undigested kibble. I have added back the coconut oil and had no ill effects. I’m happy with the results of the change plus I still feel the CO has some benefits.

[Jeff L]

Its been about 3 weeks since starting Orijen and Nick has been doing great. No undigested kibble in his stool. Not eating his poop anymore at all even when left alone in parents or friends backyard. He gets 1 TBSP of coconut oil a day and his coat looks awesome.

[pitlove]

Thanks for the update, Jeff! Glad to hear you found a food that is working so well.

[Cannoli]

Hi Jeff L,

Nice to read up that your dog is doing well.

I disagree with a poster who states that coconut oil has not benefits to a dog.

I have found that when I use extra virgin coconut oil on my dog it has helped.

In the winter time I rub it on his fur,noise, and paws and it has prevented blisters.

I feed it to my pup several times a week with protein sources that don’t have a lot of fat and he has had no issues digest it. My pup enjoys swimming a lot and the coconut oil helps keep his scalp moist.

Good extra virgoin coconut oil has some great benefits to a dog and am glad your pup can handle it.

[Author]

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