[Naturella]

So, I decided to take a better look at some Hill’s Science Diet recipes, and aside from what I already knew about the regular recipes, that they are full of grains and gluten and stuff, or, if not that, other starches and pea protein that follow in mass amounts after a single meat ingredient… SIGH… But the prescription recipes truly horrified me! I mean, come onnnnnnn, HOW would these: “Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Caramel color” help with freaking glucose management for diabetic dogs and gastrointestinal issues? And this stuff is supposed to be “medical” and probably even costs more!!! What for – some real crap instead of the mostly-crap found in regular recipes… I cringe and shiver/shudder (whatever the appropriate word is, sorry, English is not my first language)…

And it is also sooo funny to watch people praise the “high protein” that the Adult Advanced Fitness Lamb Meal and Rice formula has (whopping 24.something%) and how great it is… Sure, it starts off with lamb meal… followed by FIVE grain-based ingredients… Followed by pork fat and chicken liver FLAVOR, and that’s the end of the meat in the recipe. Then another grain in there somewhere. Why do people buy this? I mean, is it even affordable? I think for the reputation it has, it should be on the costly-ish side, no? Can people not buy better for this money? I am sure they could, right? Online, or with coupons, something!

I’m so sorry, had to vent, because my roommate’s dog has actually started getting in my dog’s food recently and what I feed mine is much better than the stuff the roommate’s dog eats… I almost want to just give her a little extra boost of food while he’s at work (like take out a cup and a third of her food and toss in a cup of mine – to even out the calories), but I can’t do that, right? Integrity issues, I guess… She’s not mine, but I feel for her a lot…

Again, sorry for the rant, I should be done now…

[theBCnut]

Science Diet makes me shudder too, but everyone will know what you mean if you say shiver, even native English speakers use shiver for shudder, after all, the reaction is very close to the same thing, and sometimes when you shudder, you get that cold fingers down the spine feeling and then you do shiver.

[Naturella]

Thanks for the explanation, theBCnut! 🙂

But yeah… IDK why I had the urge to vent about it so much, lol… Sigh, maybe cause of my roommate’s dog trying to eat my dog’s food, made me happy and sad. Meh…

[theBCnut]

Sometimes we just need to let it out. I would be frustrated too.

[Susan]

When I got my boy over 1 year ago, he had real bad skin problems, no hair around his neck & his front & back right legs, it looked like he was tied up & a rope had cut into his legs where he’d pull, the neck was a mystery, 1 vet said it was from one of those real thick studded leather collars, another vet said it was from a choker chain collar, also he had real thin hair on the top of his head, no hair around tail base, looked like flea allergy, vet put him on the Royal Canin Hypoallergenic kibble, back then I didnt know much about kibble 2 months after being on the R/C Patch became real ill, he wasnt playing, kept licking & licking his mouth, burping, diarrhea, I asked for a Pancreatitis test but it came back all good, then I changed vets as where I go there’s about 5-6 vets, the vet I was seeing at the time wouldnt change Hypoallergenic kibble, being a prescription diet I need the vet to change so one of the ladys behind the counter said to see the American vet called Sue she is more of a holistic vet what I like, she changed the R/C vet diet to Hills Z/D, I took the Z/D home & read all the ingredients & wouldnt give it to Patch & took it back & got my $100 back, then she put Patch on Eukanuba Intestinal.. I read all the ingredients & cause he was having real bad diarrhea the Intestinal is guaranteed to stop diarrhea within 2-3days probably the corn but corn is the only bad ingredient this rest is good chicken & turkey & limited ingredients.. out of the 3 vet prescription diets I found that the Eukanuba is the best, & its the only one that has helped Patch being a low residue kibble it gave Patches stomach a rest but I believe the stupid Royal Canin made Patch ill, whatever was in it R/C. Finally found out 2 months ago Patch has Pancreatitis & needs a low fat diet the R/C Hypoallergenic was 19 % crude fat so that would of brought on the Pancreatitis..It did help his skin but I think any good food would of helped his skin…
People believe in their vets & think that they know best, its sad especially when ur animal is so sick you think that ur dog is getting the best food at the time…

[Naturella]

Sue, I’m so sorry Royal Canin made Patch ill… Hope you’ve found better foods that work for him now.

And I totally forgot about the vet side (makes me even angrier). It is such a responsible profession that has a health impact on so many animals, and an emotional and financial impact on their people, that it blows my mind how vets would calmly suggest products like that… What’s more, I know of a vet who confidently told me that he doesn’t buy into the whole grain-free craze and that Iams is good enough for him and his dogs. And I was at his house, and I saw it with my own 2 eyes that the food is in the pantry, and he does indeed feed that. He is also a recent grad in the field and an operating veterinarian.

I swear I have learned so much more about proper animal (well, dog mostly, and some of cat) nutrition than from a vet. I wish I had asked her more, because she is supposed to be somewhat holistic – does Chinese medicine and acupuncture and such – not to pick a fight or anything, just to see what she says… Maybe I will ask in September, when it’s Bruno’s time for shots again (just his second round ever). We’ll see though. I feel pretty confident in what I feed him (yes, kibble, I know, I know, but it is always topped with canned/other additives/raw, so until I can feed him just balanced raw, that should do for now).

[Suburban Gal]

Unfortunately, dog food companies like Science Diet, IAMS, and Purina are a driving force behind what veterinarian’s learn about pet nutrition in veterinary school. The books they’re given on pet nutrition may contain a lot of great basic nutrition information that’s factual, correct and unbiased, but the authors of those books are researchers from Science Diet, IAMS, Purina and other companies that make sub-par foods so they were quick to promote their own line of pet food.

In addition to providing course materials for veterinary students, Science Diet, IAMS, Purina and other well-known companies that make sub-par foods tend to offer additional perks for veterinary students. Purina, for example, provides several wonderful monographs on a variety of topics, including radiology, cytology, bone marrow disorders, and urinary problems. Science Diet has a program that allows struggling veterinary students to pay just $3 a bag for Rx food which would normally cost $25. All of these companies also offer small stipends to veterinary students to study something specific and provide the diets used in veterinary hospitals to feed patients, which are then offered free or at a greatly reduced price to students and staff.

Science Diet, IAMS, and Purina have also managed to partner up with shelters and rescues groups. Not only do they supply them with large quantities of food several times a year in the form of a generous donation, but they also give them adoption kits to give out whenever someone adopts from them. The kits contain their food and literature published by these companies in addition to coupons for their food and treats.

I hate to say it, but money talks.

[Naturella]

Suburban Gal, yeah, I knew most of that, can’t believe it slipped my mind… I don’t know what else to say besides, “disgusting”… 🙁

I really wish I could work at some store, like PetSmart or PetCo, and teach customers what is good to feed and what not, and at least help some people before I get fired for not selling the food I should be, lol… Sigh.

[Suburban Gal]

That said, I’d never trust a veterinarian when it comes to nutrition and recommending a good food for your pet, as they typically don’t spend a whole lot of time on the subject. Veterinary Schools usually don’t offer more than one or two nutrition courses. During a 4-year course on Veterinary Science the veterinary student spends about one week (40 to 50 hours) studying nutrition. They even have a real nutritionist who comes in to tell the students that any food approved by AAFCO was fine for pet consumption.

[Naturella]

Yeah… I mean, I am sure there are some gem veterinarians out there, who have gone the extra mile to educate themselves separately, but surely they are few and far between…

[Suburban Gal]

It’s a lot less for a veterinary technician so I wouldn’t trust them either although they now have Veterinary Nutrition Technicians that are specially trained and certified to assist veterinarians with nutritional assessment and management. These technicians are certified by the Academy of Veterinary Nutrition Technicians (AVNT) and must complete at least 4,000 hours or 3 years of work experience in animal nutrition. In addition, the vet tech must have at least 40 hours of approved continuing education relating to animal nutrition and these courses must have been completed within 3 years of the candidate’s application.

I’d only trust a Veterinary Nutrition Technicians (VNT) when it comes to pet nutrition.

[Shasta220]

Ironically, I was just on the subject of Hills myself! It was a different forum, someone had asked what’s good kibble for their cat – said they were feeding Hills. I suggested DFA for some head starts on good brands, and warned about the gross junk in Hills.

What happened? A bunch of people chewed me out how “…if your dog needs a prescription diet, you have no other choice.” I still said that I would never feed such useless fillers to my dogs, and would rather look into home made diets for the “prescription” benefits. They said, and I quote, “…you just don’t understand, do you! THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER OPTION!!!!!” – eek! They tried to caps me to death! Ohhhhh the pain!

Eeeesh! I’m sorry, I don’t care how bad my dogs get and how “absolutely necessary” a prescription Hills or RC kibble is needed, I would never feed it to my dogs! I’d rather take time to find some sort of home made diet and supplements that had the benefits without that added trash.

Okay, my vent is over too 😉

(I use shudder for the description as well, I almost never use shiver except to describe when I’m cold lol)

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Shasta220.

[Naturella]

Carlyn… Amen and Amen and Amen and times 10 and OMG, what’s that forum btw….? Just um… curious. Wanna um… check it out.

And I would not either I don’t care if the Dog God Himself recommends it… UNLESS all of a sudden Hills starts making good food… Which may never happen… Sigh, I sometimes do not get people… >:(

[Shasta220]

It’s a pet board on a makeup site lol, so I hang out there since not too many people know much, and I feel like even I can answer most of the health/behavior questions, haha! (Plus it’s fun to post pet pics)

I feel so awful that I actually fed Hills to Cassy one time. My parents could only afford a 3 star food (Nutra Nuggets lamb & rice) at the time, and I had enough money to buy one of the three dogs a more quality food. I decided to buy for Cassy (even though she’s the only dog that I didn’t bring home lol!) since she’s the old lady. I started with NutriSource and that made her flare up horribly, so I moved to Dog Lovers Gold, which she improved on. The vet asked what food I fed her, and I said DLG – he said “only food I recommend is Hills. I do not recommend DLG.” I had never been on DFA or any similar sites, so I obviously didn’t realize that most vets don’t truly recommend the best.

I bought her two bags total. I’m rather surprised to this day how well she did on it, considering it’s only 2.5 stars. She definitely did better on DLG though lol…..I went to DFA on the second bag of Hills (after I finally read the ingredients, and didn’t really understand why “corn gluten” was one of the top ingredients if it’s supposed to be an “amazing” food). Eeeeesh I wanted to hit my head on the desk so hard after spending as much on a lousy food as I’d been spending on the 4 star ones. Grrrrrrr!

But now Cassy is on Pure Balance GF (I’m just testing to see if grains have anything to do w her dandruff) and is a happy healthy old lady.

[Shasta220]

So to sum that story up: I learned the hard way that nope. The vet don’t always know best. I’d try to find a vet who has had a /proper/ course on nutrition, not some that was funded by a big name brand (in that case, why don’t we have McDonalds go fund some people nutrition courses?!)….but there aren’t many vets here, and they don’t seem to force nutrition down your throat. If you say “she’s fine on her food” and they obviously can’t argue the glossy coat, healthy build, and wiggly tail. So they nod and go onto the checkup.

Woooah. I was just looking at the hills reviews. I’m so surprised that I actually found 4 star formulas! The Ideal Balance puppy kibbles are four, count em, four stars! Not that I’d ever buy anything from Hills, but at least there are a few people out there who get tricked by the big name and still get at least a tiny bit of nutrition in their pooches, lol! (I got curious about the Ideal Balance after seeing a TV ad saying no corn/wheat/soy. I just thought, “wait. Is that even possible for Hills to do without going GF?!?”)

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Shasta220.

[Naturella]

Shasta, awh! Glad Cassy did well, and that she is on a good food now! I also did look and they have some GF formulas in there. And roommate’s dog’s food is actually rated 3 or 3.5 stars on here, so not insanely bad, just gross – that dog is eating lamb-flavored croutons with all them grains in the recipe!!!

As far as trust goes – I’d trust:
1. Holistic vet/Vet or Technician with education in nutrition
2. My dog’s health (not necessarily his preference, cause he has willingly stolen some SD kibbles before… yuck!)/most of you guys on this forum

And… yeah, that sums it up. 😀

[aimee]

Naturella… Since you’d trust a holistic vet with education in nutrition you may be interested to know that Susan G. Wynn, DVM, CVA, CVCH, AHG Veterinary Nutrition and Integrative Medicine
recommends Science Diet : ) susanwynn.com/uploads/Large_breed_puppy_nutrition.doc

I’m open to the idea that veterinary nutritionists and PhD nutritionists use different criteria to evaluate diets and I find that they often recommend Hills. I’ve also found that when commercial foods are fed to zoo animals Hills is often used. My local zoo feeds Hills. I asked why and if they get it as a donation and was told by the zoo nutritionist that they purchase the food and they use it because of the controlled nutrient levels and high bioavailability of the nutrients.

[Hound Dog Mom]

She also recommended Eagle dog food (I’m assuming she’s referring to “Eagle Pack”). The minimum calcium level in the LBP formula is 4.3 g/1,000 kcal and I’d assume the actual and maximum are much higher. Interesting.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[LexiDog]

It says “We recommend any of these brands of large breed puppy diets: Science Diet, Eukanuba, Eagle, and Nutro”. Large breed puppies and explains why these are recommended based on the protein, fat and calcium to phosphorus levels. I am sure the recommended foods are appropriate for large breed dogs but I am sure that there are quality foods out there with way better ingredients.

My poor friends dog is on the W/D diet because he is diabetic and says that he poops 6 TIMES A DAY!!! That is because he is eating just corn!! There are better foods out there especially for diabetic dogs.

SD Rx foods are garbage

[theBCnut]

W/D is very high fiber, so it causes a lot of defecation.

[Shasta220]

(What does W/D stand for?) I used to have an APBT mix, Otto. He used to be stuck eating Dog Chow. He went through 9c of food daily, and I cleaned his area out every 24hrs. I got 6-10 piles (they were nice big and thick, not mushy or skinny). He was not an overweight dog at all either. He was 90lbs and could have gained 6-10 without looking tubby. I finally convinced mom to get him a better food, so she got Nutra Nuggets (lamb, peas, and wheat were first 3 ingredients). He went from 9c to 2c without gaining or losing a single pound! And he went down to 2-5 piles instead of 6-10!

Sadly, he didn’t get a chance to have the dogs’ current 4 star food, as he passed a year ago…

[LexiDog]

W/D is a low fat glucose management dog food by SD that is supposed to be for diabetic dogs. The ingredients are: Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Caramel color, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C) , Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, Iodized Salt, Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, L-Threonine, Beta-Carotene, Phosphoric Acid, Natural Flavors.

[theBCnut]

It’s weight control food, so I always thought of it as Weight Diet.

[LexiDog]

Weight Diet sound right.

[Naturella]

aimee, thanks for the info. Ugh. I guess I’ll stick to just trusting you all and Bruno, lol.

As for SD and their RX yeah… Pure garbage, I agree.

Blah…

[Shasta220]

Oh my goodness! A meat (by product) isn’t even until the 5th ingredient?!?!? Daaaang that’s nasty!

Ugh. Sorry for vent on cheap food again – but I’m being reminded of what it’s like having a dog with a lousy diet. I brought 2 dogs to my house for babysitting, and they eat Beneful. (The smell makes me wanna puke, lol! The owners like good prices tho, and thought Beneful was good, so paid 20$ for 30lb. I’m trying to talk em into moving to a better food at only 25$ for 40lb. They sound like they might when they come back from traveling, yay!) Anyway, since they’re only 2, there aren’t many signs of the bad food other than constant weight-changes and bad odor…but gosh do they poo a LOT! One made a huge pile (normal, not too hard or mushy at least). Not 10min later, she made another equally large pile.

Within an hour of them being at our house, we had 5 big doggie-piles… Booooy they made Loki and Shasta’s doo-doos smell like chocolate and peanut butter! XD

[Naturella]

Hello, all! I know I have vented on here about how my roommate feeds his dog the SD, and thought it was great – well, yesterday there was amazing breakthrough!!! He went out to get her food and came back with a 5-lb (or 4-lb) bag of Nulo Medal Series Grain Free Adult Lamb and Lentils!!! He said that the people at the store recommended it over the SD and he wanted to give it a try with his dog. He even asked if we have heard of this food and what we thought of it. Based on DFA, I think it is a GREAT change from the SD! He even admitted that it is much better ingredient-wise, higher-calorie, so his dog can eat less, overall awesome! I am soooo excited for her (the dog)!!! She actually loves this food to no end too and gobbles up her meals like never before! 🙂

He also mentioned raw feeding and stuff and how it’s good for dogs’ teeth! I always thought he was against stuff like that and that he would never admit to them being good. He probably still won’t feed her raw, but the change in kibble is fantastic!!! I’m pumped! 🙂 Hope he keeps her on good food from now on! 🙂

[Bobby dog]

Hi Naturella:
I hope you had a fun & safe vacation. 🙂

[Naturella]

Bobby dog. I did, thank you! I fell off the grid of DFA for a bit, buy I still follow “my” topics of interest! 🙂

[Diana B]

It is awful dog food, but we are lead to believe that it is healthy because our veterinarians get a kick back to sell it. No dog should have corn in their diets. I spent hundreds on vet bills because this food gave my dog urinary incontinence. We are now on Wellness Core and all her health issues have gone away…

[Author]

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