[Courtney R]

So, I’m considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and I’m inwhat I’d call a “researching” phase. Did anyone else feel totally overwhelmed when starting this process or is that just me? Lol

Short background: I have a 60 lb ACD mix that is roughly 7 (Burke) and a 12 lb Pomchi that is 5 (Miles). They’ve been on Orijen for the past couple of years and so far as stools go it seems to agree with them. However, Burke has started getting lick granulomas roughly 2x per year, Miles chronically seems “yeasty”, they’ve both had UTIs this year and we got fleas for the first time ever this summer which has been an utter nightmare. My vet of course gave antibiotics for the UTIs but seems to not be concerned about the other stuff. But to me it seems their immune systems aren’t up to snuff and diets the easiest way at it.

Currently I have 3 questions which might seem totally unrelated:
#1. Should I have a blood panel done prior to starting raw just to be certain there isn’t any reason why it’d be unhealthy to switch them to raw? Seeing as they’re both having issues I’m doubting that would be the case, but I’m a worrier 😉

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

#3. They already get coconut oil, yogurt or kefir, salmon oil and digestive enzymes. Could I continue these through the transition or should I hold off and give their stomachs time to adjust to raw food? Also, any supplements that they absolutely NEED to have or is this kind of just up to me?

Sorry this wasn’t as short as I’d hoped but thanks so much for any help. This forum has already been a big assistance and I can’t wait to learn more from you guys!

[anonymously]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/ (excerpt below, click on link for full article)
“Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food”.
http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes
More information below:

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

[InkedMarie]

I felt pretty overwhelmed; no lie. I feed grinds because my husband isn’t interested in. True prey model raw but we do feed turkey necks & beef rib bones. For us, grinds are easy: thre the scale, scoop in, add supplements & feed.

I buy from Hare today; Google for the website. There is a ton of info there and if you have questions, email them. Tracy is the owner and very helpful.

[Courtney R]

To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads. I’m not in the least opposed to home cooking for my dogs. In fact that was the first thing I looked into after deciding to get them off kibble. I imagine a lot of people do the same. Feeding raweat to my pets is, quite frankly, a little scary.

However, I can’t find much useful information on formulating a home cooked diet. Recipes, sure, but I want something that gives me numbers/formulas/percentages. Maybe I’m weird but I want to just Google recipes and start trying random things. I like that prey model operates on an 80/10/10 and I can sit down and calcute how much meat, bone and organs to feed them. I also like that there’s no starches (potatoes, rice, etc) involved as I am trying to avoid those in their diet.

What I’m getting at is if you know any good sites, books, articles etc that will teach me how to formulate a diet that meets all their nutritional requirements I would love to read it. Im just not finding either of the links you posted particularly informative.

To inkedmarie: So glad I’m not the only one who feels overwhelmed! 😊

[InkedMarie]

Courtney,
To be honest, talking to Tracy from Hare Today via email and reading her site made me feel so much better. The grinds I feed are meat/bone/organ & some have tripe. You only need balance over time, not every meal. I’m 100000% confident that I’m doing fine.

[anonymously]

From a previous link provided: “The real “experts” in this area are board-certified veterinary nutritionists, individuals who have advanced residency training in nutrition and have passed the board certification exam of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition”.

Maybe you should consider consulting a board-certified veterinary nutritionist.

[Courtney R]

I have looked into a veterinary nutritionist, but unfortunately the closest one to me is 3 hours away and doesn’t do consults by email or phone. Seeing as how I don’t own a car or drive I haven’t figured out how I’d manage to get my dogs there. But, I’m still looking in to it, thanks!

[anonymously]

“To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads”.

I am someone who has tried raw diets for my pets, as I would speculate the others that are trying to alert you to the possible dangers probably are.
I don’t enjoy going to the emergency veterinary clinics.

PS: I am an RN and have owned dogs for a few decades.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by anonymously.

[Courtney R]

I get that there are dangers to feeding raw and I don’t criticize anyone for trying to make others aware of that fact. All I was trying to say is that a lot of the links posted aren’t particularly useful. For example, the recipe posted earlier was basically chicken, rice and a supplement. I feed my dogs chicken and rice (a bland diet) if they have diarrhea, it’s not really something I would consider balanced and even if I added a supplement it’s not something I would want to feed my dogs routinely or long term. Like I said, I’ve also been researching home cooked meals and am open to them, but from everything I’ve been reading it actually seems MORE difficult to ensure dogs are receiving balanced nutrition from home cooked as opposed to raw. I don’t want to end up in an emergency clinic because of what I’m feeding them (cooked or raw) which is why I’m trying to diligently do my homework.

[anonymously]

Maybe this link will help:
http://www.homeovet.net/dynamic/php/downloads/dog-c8470f2c75dbe4b683205c3919ee2310/dog_diet_complete.pdf

I am leery of homeopathic vets, however, this one seems to be legit. The article is a few years old, but I think it has some good guidelines.

[Courtney R]

This link is useful, thank you! I’m guessing you’re a different anonymous user as this diet encourages feeding meat raw lol. I obviously haven’t read through all of it thoroughly (I will), but I wonder about carbs. Dogs don’t need them, and they don’t seem to agree with my dogs, so I’m looking to eliminate them. I wonder if I put that 45-55% towards protein if this would no longer be balanced or if I would just be feeding less? I’ll definitely read through this, and thanks again for posting it.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Courtney R-

Have you ever checked out the http://www.balanceit.com website? It’s a site that allows you to formulate free recipes for healthy dogs and cats. You can choose protein, carb, veggie and/or fruits of your choice. You then can taylor it to your dog’s weight and whatever percetage of fat and protein you want to feed. You do need to buy their supplement to balance it with the proper vitamins and minerals as well.

If your pet has a health condition, they will work with your vet to formulate the recipes for you. Check it out. I have a few recipes that I feed my dogs every now and then.

Good luck!

Edit: BTW, this site is only for cooked home made food, no raw.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by crazy4cats.

[anonymously]

Regarding carbs, you made me think of the grapefruit diet made famous years ago during the era of a celebrity model named Twiggy. Anyway, a lot of humans ended up with kidney damage on diets that completely eliminated carbs…just saying.

[Courtney R]

Lol well in regards to humans I know there is a lot of debate regarding whether or not we need carbs. However, I have found little to no relevant evidence that dogs need them. Can they have them? Sure. But they’re primarily used to add bulk to food. Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does so a high protein diet obviously less foos, but not necessarily less nutrition.

[anonymously]

Where are you getting your information? From well meaning folks on the internet and Doctor Google?
Consult a professional, some of your comments don’t make any sense. Only a veterinarian that has examined your dog and reviewed it’s history can make specific recommendations regarding diet. Just my opinion. It appears that you have already decided what you want to do and are just looking for posters to support your opinions.
Best of luck.

[Courtney R]

My comments about carbohydrates?
Well, theres this study on (working) sled dogs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4734973
That showed that despite their level of rigorous activity they actually perform better on high fat, high protein diets.

Or maybe this educational textbook:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10668/nutrient-requirements-of-dogs-and-cats
That states that there’s no requirement of digestible carbohydrates in dogs diets.

And there’s my vet, who explicitly told me there’s no need for dogs to eat carbs, it’s just nearly impossible to make dry kibble without them.

And I’m not decided on anything, I’ve just posted questions regarding feeding raw in a raw forum. Why would I post my questions about preparing cooked food for my dogs in a raw forum, when obviously no one in that forum cooks their food??

[anonymously]

One of your articles regarding “sled dogs” is from 1973, the other is from a book that cost $150 and I can’t find the name of one veterinarian that has anything to do with the book.

“And there’s my vet, who explicitly told me there’s no need for dogs to eat carbs, it’s just nearly impossible to make dry kibble without them”.

Exactly, that is why many of us use a quality kibble as a base, 1/3 to 1/2 of the diet and add healthy toppers. Maybe you should give your vet a call and ask him to clarify what he meant by that statement, see what he recommends…

[Courtney R]

Being from 1973 doesn’t make it any less valid. Dogs wouldn’t go from not needing starches to needing them in a 40 year period, evolution doesn’t work that quickly.

And the book isnt written by vets, its written National Research Council. It’s used by colleges to educate veterinary nutritionists.

My vet meant exactly what he said ,which is that dogs don’t NEED carbs. Meaning, it’s not harmful to remove them.

If you feed your kibble with toppers and your dog does well, then great! However, I feed my dogs quality kibble and they are not doing great on it so I am looking in to alternatives, one of which is raw. Basically, I’m educating myself in exactly the same way I do when it comes to making food choices for myself. I would never rely solely on what one person says regarding my diet, be it my doctor, my personal trainer or some whackadoo on the internet. Why would I do that for my dog?

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

In regards to your questions:

I would get full blood panels on each dog prior to starting your new diet so that you have a baseline to compare back to. I’ve seen it recommended to repeat blood panels every 6 months for dogs on homemade diets.

Some feel comfortable feeding bones.. I do not… I do not think the risk is worth the benefit. If using raw bone as your calcium source I feel finely ground is much safer. Disclosure: I do not feed a raw diet. If I did I’d either use a commercial HPP product or would buy large cuts and partially cook to kill off the bacteria both on the surface and those that have migrated deeper and grind myself. I remain unconvinced that dogs tolerate food borne pathogens significantly better then people do.

What supplements you use are up to your own personal philosophy. The primary concern is that you feed a balanced diet. Unfortunately, when the raw diets that people were feeding have been analyzed, most people who participated in the study did not accomplishing this.

I understand the appeal of a simple 80/10/10 mix but honestly I think it requires just as much attention to detail to balance a raw diet as it does to balance a cooked diet.

There are a few veterinary nutritionists that will balance a raw diet, most will not. Veterinary nutritionists legally can not consult directly with you unless they examine your dog which is why you found that they do not do phone/e mail consults. However they can consult indirectly via your veterinarian. Your vet orders the consult and works with the nutritionist on your behalf.

In regards to carbohydrates, people do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates and dogs do not either. Both species require carbohydrate from a metabolic standpoint, the body just has to generate what the diet doesn’t supply. But I don’t understand this statement “Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does” Protein and carbs are considered to carry the same number of calories /gram, the volumes involved will depend on the water content.

[Jenn H]

What Anonymously said is spot on.
The very first question my vet said to ask any dog food company before even worrying about anything else is “Does a board certified vet nutritionist formulate the diets?” Better still they should have one on staff.

[Jenn H]

Courtney R you don’t have to consult a vet nutritionist closest to you via phone or email. Find a board certified nutritionist that does communicate that way. Doesn’t matter what part of the country they’re in.
I will tell you though they can be a bit pricey.
I’m in the Boston area. We have Tufts Vet School. One of the best. I know for a fact they do phone consults.

[Courtney R]

Thanks so much for the response Aimee!

After a lot of consideration I think I’m leaning towards a dehydrated mix such as THK because I feel it’s the most sustainable for me long term, and it’s something I feel more comfortable with. The boys have a vet appt for blood work just to be safe, besides they’re both due anyway 😊

As far the carbs to protein thing, I was totally thinking of fat instead of protein lol. This is what happens when I get irritated by random people in forums.

[InkedMarie]

Courtney,
Do you by chance live in New England?

[Spy Car]

Courtney, I’d advocate you really consider PMR.

Feeding soft edible bone (like chicken bones) really isn’t scary. An 80/10/10 model of diverse sources will keep the nutrition on track.

One place where I’d diverge from the advice of some raw feeding websites is on the issue of delaying organs. I think this is a very bad idea on two fronts. One, the nutrients from organs are vital (especially in growing puppies). Two, delay increases the odds of a dog developing an aversion to organs. I’ve read of people delaying organs (and advocating the practice) and then saying they need to virtually force-feed them later (as organs are not optional).

My advice if you choose PMR is to introduce organs as soon as you have stable stools. Organs can lossen stools, so it is a good idea to start adding them in in wee amounts and build up to PMR percentages over time.

Relax about chicken bones. Do monitor the dogs as they start to make sure they are not gulpers (bigger pieces help ensure chewing). There are hard bones that are best avoided to prevent tooth damage, but chicken is easy.

There is no value in adding carbohydrates to the meals. Dogs process fat much more efficiently as their primary energy source, with sustained energy and peak aerobic capacity vs the quick peaks and valleys of carbohydrates that cut stamina and aerobic capacity.

Bill

[Cannoli]

In regards to your second concern:

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

You don’t need to just do bones for calcium..You can use natural supplements like Natural seaweed calcium found on Amazon, or use a bone calcium supplement also found on Amazon (just make sure it is Vitamin D free if you plan to feed organs), or you can use egg shells..

[InkedMarie]

If you get chicken grinds from Hare, they have organs & bone in them already

[Spy Car]

Removing soft edible bone from the diet (or replacing it with pre-ground bone) removes one of the prime benefits of feeding raw in the first place. It really makes little sense unless there is a good cause for doing so (like an old dog with dental issues).

Chewing soft edible is important for good dental health in addition to providing calcium. It is a reason for embracing raw feeding, not something to figure out how to avoid.

Bill

[Cannoli]

Hi Bill,

even soft edible bone can cause choking hazards if dog is not appropriately trained or supervised. As well as potential intenstinal blockage.

Plus you are never exactly sure how much calcium your dog is absorbing from that edible bone. Hence I always advise in rotational feeding. That includes calcium sources too. Natural organic calcium powder doea not only prevent choking hazards but it is alot easier for a dog’s body to absorb and you know the exact amount of calcium to phosphorus ratio that you are providing.

In regards to dental health, daily teeth brushing has proven to be more effective for dogs than edible bones

[Spy Car]

Hey Cannoli,

Homes are filled with a myriad of items that can be considered choking hazards for dogs (and children). People starting raw feeding should monitor their dogs to make sure they get the hang of chewing bone (which is about as natural an instinct as canines could have). Feeding larger sized pieces of bone-in parts (like chicken quarters) that can’t be gulped is always smart, as is supervising a dog new to raw feeding.

But dogs are hard wired to chew. The risks of choking on appropriately sized chicken bones are very low and diminish to near zero as dogs get accustomed to it. Intestinal blockages from items like chicken bones are exceedingly rare. I’d worry a lot more about socks.

The calcium (and its bioavailability) from bone is not in question. Concerns about absorption are misplaced. Getting calcium from bone is what canines were shaped by evolution to do. It is superior to artificial supplementation.

The PMR style of feeding with 10% bone keeps the Calcium Phosphorus ratios at the perfect 1.2:1 levels recommended by the leading authorities as optimal. It is spreading a false fear that rotational feedings with calcium supplements are necessary to maintain mineral balances:it simply isn’t so.

The act of chewing is good for dogs. It is relaxing for them. It builds good dental health (encouraging strong gums and clean teeth) and builds strong neck and jaw muscles, in a fashion that feeding calcium powder does not.

If an owner wishes to brush teeth on top of raw feeding, great! I just know how many conventionally fed dogs I know and they nearly all have tartar-stained yellowing (if not rotten teeth) in marked contrast to raw fed dogs whose teeth stay nice and white (with fresh breath).

When we get phobic or fearful about very natural ways of being it has a cost. This is true both with dogs and with children. One can cut off “play” because someone might get hurt, but that comes at a cost. The risks of feeding soft edible bones to dogs is very (very) low, Cutting them out of the diet due to inflated assessments of the risks has a cost.

The advantages to feeding soft edible bone vastly outweigh the risks. Feeding powdered calcium is sub-optimal.

Bill

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Spy Car.

[aimee]

Hi Spy Car,

Cannoli, Is making valid points in regards to feeding bones. Disclosure: When I was a teen I saw a young shepherd choke to death from a bone.. it was a horrible thing to witness.. and no doubt has forever shaped my thoughts on the feeding of bones to dogs.

The risk may be small… and you may think it will never happen to your dog, and most likely it won’t, but what if it does?

I would never be able to forgive myself if my dog choked or had an esophageal or intestinal perforation or a blockage from a bone I gave him/her, which is why I’ll never feed bones. Others may be able to deal with such a situation differently which will lead them to a different choice.

The dental benefits from bone chewing are primarily cosmetic (Clarke 1998) and do not come without dental risk in addition to the risk of death. Since brushing teeth is superior to bone chewing in maintaining dental health there is no “cost” to not offering bone.

Finally, I’m having difficulty in understanding the following statement and hoping you can explain it to me.”The PMR style of feeding with 10% bone keeps the Calcium Phosphorus ratios at the perfect 1.2:1 levels” I did the calculations for an 80/10/10 PMR breakdown and do not get a 1.2:1 ratio. 80 grams chicken breast has 4 mg Ca and 170 mg Phos, 5 grams chicken liver has 0 Ca and 15 mg Phos, 5 grams beef kidney has 1 mg Ca and 13 mg Phos. 10 grams chicken bone has 1800 mg Ca and 830 mg Phos. Adding them all together yields 1,805mg Ca and 1,028mg Phos for a Ca/Phos ratio of 1.75:1 and a mind blowing 16.4 grams Ca/1000 kcals.

Nutrient levels for chicken meat/ liver and beef kidney taken from USDA Nutrient database. Ca and Phos content in chicken bone from Suchy et al 2009 ” Chemical composition of bone tissue in broiler chickens intended for slaughter”

[InkedMarie]

Glad I feed ground raw with bones to gnaw on; I can’t imagine watching a dog choke to death. Sorry you had to, Aimee.

[Cannoli]

Thank Aimee and sorry to read about seeing such a tragedy at a young age.

I tried once feeding my pup a whole duck neck edible bone under supervision and he nearly choked on it. I vowed to never take that risk again and sought other forms of calcium sources

[aimee]

Hi Cannoli,

I read a post from a vet who wrote that chicken and turkey neck bones are the most frequent foreign body he has had to remove via scope from the esophagus …no doubt due the irregular shape.. all those protuberances.

Sadly those protuberances also puncture right through the esophagus and make removal challenging. He wrote that in the last month he had euthanized several young dogs due to perforation from bone. So sad and so avoidable.

I know of 3 bone cases from my own vet. One had already passed before arriving to the hospital ( choked on a chicken thigh bone cartilage “end cap”), in another the bone was successfully removed via scope ( the dog had pet insurance but claim was denied since the bone was intentionally given to the dog) the third was referred to a specialty hospital because the esophagus was perforated… the dog didn’t survive.

Here is a paper on removal of esophageal foreign bodies citing bone as the most frequent problem and reported a mortality of 11% http://www.irishvetjournal.org/content/63/3/163

I’m with you… it isn’t worth the risk.

[Acroyali]

Just a few of my own thoughts:

When I was in the transitional stages, one of my cats choked…on kibble. He was excessively hungry, and I was removing the 24 hour a day buffet in order to get them acclimated to meal times. He was OK, but any living thing can choke on anything. Bones can be scary, and if someone isn’t comfortable feeding bones I never would suggest it dissuades them from feeding a healthier diet than they’re already feeding. Hare Today offers boneless grinds (meat only) as well as boneless chunks of meat. I believe chicken and turkey both come this way, check the product description to be sure.

I’ve used boneless chunks as “reminders” to chew. I never give an excessively hungry dog anything bone-in; bones come after the main meal, which is mostly muscle meats and organs. It works for us, hopefully it can and will work for others.

I have and do brush teeth on a few of my dogs as a precaution. The issue I have is getting more brushed than the stuff we see at first glance. Getting the gumline on the inside part of the back molars with a toothbrush is next to impossible. Your dogs’ teeth may look wonderful when you lift their lip up. But if they yawn or pant and you get a glimpse of gross stuff on the INSIDE of the teeth, chewing is their best bet to get their teeth cleaned up.

I used to be a huge fan of recreational bones until a recent tooth fracture on one of my larger dogs. Now I know why some owners call them “wreck” bones 😉

I have never had the unfortunate experiences described here by some from puncturing or choking to death, and hope I never do. I know of one person who had a boxer choke on an ox tail and the dog died on the way to the vet. I’m SUPER weird about choosing large things for my dogs to chew on for this reason; even if they don’t totally consume the whole thing at once. There’s no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming raw bones, but there’s also no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming tainted, moldy, spoiled “safe” dry food (covered in salmonella, BTW), or have suffered greatly from eating a poor choice of food *for them* and have had the symptoms suppressed with drugs.

JMO.

[Sherri S]

My husband and I are mostly vegetarians. He eats more meat than I do. The problem with raw meats is a potential problem with E. Coli or Salmonella that occurs in the slaughtering process. In fast slaughtering machines they try to get animals to run through as it slices them up into thousands of pieces. As many of you may recall, Chipotle had a similar problem. At a slaughterhouse (which I am opposed to doing to animals, anyway, btw), ALL of the creature’s body including intestinal tract is often mixed in together, especially in he fast slaughtering machine type. This is why meats were cooked in the first place. To reduce bacteria in the meal itself especially intestinal tract. When we defecate, thousands of bacterial often leave our bodies (humans and dogs). These same areas where our bowel movements occur are full of bacterial and sometimes viruses. Also, fish uncooked can give you a parasite called neorickettsia helminthoeca which is very poisonous to dogs. A vet can also check the feces for nanophyetus salmincola to check for laid eggs. Our dogs get a very good diet of cooked veggies (uncooked can puncture the intestine or cause a disease such as Hepatitis in humans). This is usually due to some countries using human feces as fertilizer which can transmit Hepatitis to other people. I hope this helps.

[Cannoli]

Hi Acroyali,

In regards to your comment “But if they yawn or pant and you get a glimpse of gross stuff on the INSIDE of the teeth, chewing is their best bet to get their teeth cleaned up.”

You can train your dog to be brushed inside their teeth. I trained mine.. At times he doesn’t like it but he puts up with it.

When my pup chews his toys I don’t see his back teeth getting any chewing action. With a toothbrush you can pinpoint all the areas that need to be cleaning. Including the gums and the the inside of the teeth all the way in the back.

[Author]

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