[Ashleigh L]

Hi there everyone! So a little background on my dogs. I have a 6 year old black lab who weighs 96 pounds and a 5 month old bernese mountain dog who is about 56 pounds. My lab has had some digestive problems for awhile now. Nothing serious, just a sensitive tummy. I’ve switched his food more times than i can remember trying to find one that he will take to. He finally started to respond well with Eukanuba. My bernese however, seems to have the absolute worst gas with this brand. I’ve always thought a raw diet would be interesting to try but never looked into it any further. After my bernese I decided to do some research. I would like to try it but have some random basic questions that hold me back from taking the plunge. I’m having trouble coming up with a meal plan for them. I get a little overwhelmed trying to put one together and making sure they are getting a balanced meal and im not breaking the bank. We decided to start them on chicken, since it’s cheap and simple. I’ve looked at getting a bunch of leg quarters to start, but then that’s as far as I’ve gotten with the meal planning. Is there anyone who also does this diet on a budget and has advice for me. I want to make sure they are getting all the nutrients they need but I need to do it as cheaply as possible or I have to switch back to kibble…which now that i’ve done my research I really don’t want to do. Thanks so much

[anonymous]

Has your dog with the “sensitive tummy” been diagnosed by a veterinarian? Has he had an annual exam that included lab work (the best diagnostic tool) to rule out medical issues?
I hope you will consult with a veterinary health care professional before proceeding. If my post offends you, don’t read it, maybe someone else will benefit from it.

BTW: There is no cheap way to do raw that is safe.

Some science based veterinary medicine here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+food

And: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
excerpt below:
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

[Ashleigh L]

Yes I have actually. He has had many expensive tests and blood work done. Nothing was abnormal or a concern. He has trouble processing his kibble. I know switching to raw shouldn’t be to save money. I care about my animals and would feed them better than myself if I could afford it. However that being said I know there can be cheaper ways to feed raw. Keeping it simple and buying meat on sale. For instance, our local store has leg quarters on sale 48 cents a pound. This is affordable for us. Just need to know if there are other things along with it I should be feeding and how often. As far as raw feeding being bad for dogs that is your own opinion. I had my opinion before doing weeks of research and now my opinion has changed. From now on please only positive advice towards the main question I asked. Thank you

[anonymous]

Got it. Here is the thing, if you can only afford marked down food, chicken, beef, turkey etc.
I would suggest cooking it first, for the best results and to avoid illness.
Egg scrambled with a bit of water is a reasonable addition to kibble.

I shop at the reduced price section at my market for my food, and my dogs, nothing wrong in that.

[Ashleigh L]

First I would like to try raw. I’ve read and been told cooking takes away from nutritional value of raw meat. I’m not concerned about it being raw. Animals can eat raw food. Cats eat mice. Dogs eat rabbits and squirrels. I’m set on going raw if I do this at all. Just having trouble figuring out making each meal balanced every time. Anyone have tips or struggle with this as well.

[Acroyali]

I wouldn’t worry about balancing every single meal. It’ll make you crazy! Aim for a good overall balance over the course of a week or two (I don’t balance all my own meals, but I try to eat a variety of foods over a short length of time.)

http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html
http://rawfed.com/

I’ve fed raw for decades and have never had any get salmonella or e-coli poisoning. Salmonella is EVERYWHERE, including on kibble.

As far as sensitive stomach issues go, you might check into feeding green tripe (NOT bleached, there’s no nutrition left in it.)
https://haretoday.com/product/raw_pet_food/ground_green_tripe_with_spleen_beef_1_lb_fine_ground
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=19&lang=en

Both places above carry EXCELLENT quality food. My dogs seem to prefer the tripe from MPC whereas my cats seem to prefer the tripe from Hare Today. Go figure 🙂

My experiences with tripe have been that dogs with sensitive stomachs become much more cast-iron in their ability to eat, digest, and utilize food. I don’t know why. Be forewarned; it smells terrible (your dogs should love it, LOL).

I’ve had good luck using MPC’s ground beef pancreas for dogs with more severe digestive problems (EPI, etc.)

Again, I wouldn’t worry about balancing every single meal, and don’t get overzealous and add in too many proteins at once. Feed chicken for a week, see how they do, and then add turkey or perhaps beef. If all’s well, add in another, and then perhaps organs.

Keep in mind that chicken/beef/etc hearts are highly nutritious, they’re considered a muscle meat and not an organ.

Best of luck!

[Ashleigh L]

Thank you so much Acroyali! that is very helpful. I did see something about tripe, and now that i know that I definitely will try that. Could you or anyone else give me an example of what a meal plan for a week could look like if im mainly using leg quarters or whole chicken even? Just so I can get an idea. The ingredients I know I will look into buying for sure is leg quarters, tripe, some type of organ and maybe some chicken feet for them to snack on since bernese mountain dogs are known to have hip problems. But Im open to a meal plan with something added in also, whether it’s rice or vegetables. Just so I have something to look at and get a better picture of what each of their meals will look like. If i have something to work off of it’ll help me start to alternate the plan on my own. Thanks so much!

[pitlove]

Raw meat bought at a grocery store is intended to be cooked and therefore no precautions are taken to rid the food of bacteria. This is dangerous to you and your family members if your two dogs are eating raw this way.

Considering my boyfriends families Rottweiler died of e.coli poisoning, I would say it is a great falsehood that dogs are not effected by pathogens in raw meat.

[Ashleigh L]

Believe it or not this was my first post in any type of forum. Or online aside from Facebook for that matter. I will not be partaking again. Besides the one helpful comment that actually pertained to what I was asking about everything else has been negative comments that don’t address my question. Posting negative self absorbed comments that don’t help anyone out and don’t answer their questions is time that you could be devoting to more important things. Thanks. Peace out

[InkedMarie]

Ashleigh: if you’re still reading, go to Hare Today (google for the website). It’s a raw food supplier. I’m not sending you there to buy but to look at the raw food education link. Also, Tracey who owns it, is very helpful. She has very large dogs and can help you. I buy my raw from her but it’s not the cheap way as we feed grinds.

Good luck!

[pitlove]

I’ve always found it odd and a little pointless when people post questions on a forum and then get upset when they don’t get the answer they wanted. Not only that but are unable to have a civil back and forth discussion or be open minded. One of the many reasons I prefer to deal with animals and not humans 🙂

[Z B]

Pitluv
Do you know if commercial raw pet food companies like Hare Today and Darwins take any precautions above and beyond the raw meat that is sold in grocery stores?

Asking because I occasionally use hare today grinds as a topper but it’s not a regular feature in my dogs diet (too expensive).
I cook most of the grocery store meat I purchase for toppers. I feed a few raw chicken hearts a week.

[pitlove]

Hi Z B-

Looking through both companies websites, I was unable to find any evidence that they use HPP or any other process to destroy bacteria.

HPP can’t kill all of the bacteria found on raw meat, but it is sure a heck of a lot safer than nothing at all.

[LEELINA M]

Dear Ashleigh,
I’m so sorry if you’ve been discouraged by negative postings. I’m also new to RAW and finding more hurdles than helpers. The problem is everyone thinks they know everything rather than just sharing what they’ve learned. I hope you are still looking into and exploring the world of raw. Here is what I’m learning and would like to share…. Obviously every dog(like every person) is different but what works for most should work for all, barring complications. I’m feeding raw with a spin. When Minnie first came home I started her on an organic GROUND WHOLE CHICKEN WITH ORGAN MEAT AND BONE. I’m lucky enough to live in an area of Southern California where that is available to me, made by NATURAL MONARCH. Knowing that she also needs other protein sources i went seeking online and now I follow Dr. Becker. She’s a traditional vet gone holistic and i like that. She has a youtube video with Rodney Habib that outlines a raw food recipe which i follow but i change up the protein. I like that this recipe doesn’t call for too many supplements. In addition i feed Raw Meaty Bones every other day. My puppy is super finicky so we’re only doing Lamb Chops, Pork Spare Ribs and Beef ribs with the occasional Chicken Wing. She refuses to eat chicken sometimes as well as chicken feet and turkey necks. She’s kind of a butthead 🙂 but we’ll keep trying. In all my research I have learned that EVERY MEAL DOES NOT NEED TO BE BALANCED! Just work on balancing over the week. Also, Human grade is best. Dog food or food intended to for pets does not have that same regulation. i don’t care what anyone else says. Let those guys eat dog grade food instead of human graded. Even sale meat is ok for animals, as you know animals have different enzymes in their mouths as well as guts to combat the bacteria and parasites that we as humans cannot without cooking it first. If in doubt just cook the protein in question and feed everything else raw. Minnie doesn’t like the taste of ground beef(youtube recipe) but i already made a giant batch so i cook it then add a tablespoon of pumpkin to kill the scent and smell and she loves it. I also add lots of parsley, kale and mint to ward off any leaky gut issues. Dogs that get sick and /or die from bacteria already have had compromised immune systems so please don’t be turned away by nay sayers. Here is a sample diet of what Minnie eats but keep in mind that she is a growing toy breed puppy and eats 3 times a day but only eats 6.5% of her body weight per day (18 weeks as of today between 6 & 7 ounces per day)
sidenote, I’ve started mixing in the rodney habib video recipe into her already ground chicken mix plus as said before pumpkin to the beef mix after lightly cooking it. The beef, i only heat the beef.

Monday… Lightly cooked Beef mix with pumpkin then a pork spare rib the Natural Monarch Raw Chicken with mix

tuesday… Ground Turkey with rodney habib mix then ground chicken mix

wed… ground beef mix then ground turkey mix then a beef rib

thurs… chicken mix then a lamb chop then chicken mix again

fri… beef mix then turkey mix

sat… beef steak with bone then chicken mix then turkey mix

sun… chicken mix then lamb chop then beef mix

Upon writing it out, i see that i obviously feed lots of ground meat but that’s because Minnie is a spoiled puppy. I feed her enough Raw Meaty Bone to have the benefit of the nice breath and clean teeth and gums plus the calcium from those and her chicken has ground bone as well and the egg shells provide sufficient calcium. I plan to introduce more WHOLE proteins after 6 months. It is safe to fast dogs for a day after that point. But right now she’s just too small and too dang picky.

Pulsing spinach, kale, parsley and other super green veggies into your mixes is also sufficient however, i also juice so i mix in the pulp into Minnie’s food.

I hope any of this was helpful.
Love, Leelina

[pitlove]

Hi Leelina-

“i went seeking online and now I follow Dr. Becker” “In all my research I have learned that EVERY MEAL DOES NOT NEED TO BE BALANCED! Just work on balancing over the week.

It is interesting that you follow Karen Becker, but have adapted the balance over time theory, which is exactly what she warns against doing.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2015/11/08/best-to-worst-pet-food-types.aspx

“Even sale meat is ok for animals, as you know animals have different enzymes in their mouths as well as guts to combat the bacteria and parasites that we as humans cannot without cooking it first.

Mechanical breakdown of food in the mouth is what begins the digestive process in canines unlike humans.
Could you provide a credible source for your statement that animals have different enzymes in their gut and mouth that allow them to destroy pathogenic bacteria & parasites? Information from PubMed or Google Scholar will be just fine.

And lets not forget the risk involved for the humans in the home when feeding a pet raw grocery store meat.

“Dogs that get sick and /or die from bacteria already have had compromised immune systems so please don’t be turned away by nay sayers.”

Again, I’m going to have to ask for a credible source of information on this considering my boyfriends Rottweiler was very healthy before he passed away of E.Coli poisoning.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/42/5/686/317224/Human-Health-Implications-of-Salmonella

“Fecal shedding of Salmonella organisms was evaluated in 20 dogs in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to determine whether dogs would shed the organism after consumption of homemade raw food diets [25]. Salmonella organisms were isolated from 30% of the 10 dogs that were fed homemade raw food diets, but they were isolated from none of the 10 dogs that were fed commercial dry food.”

and in another study

“In a similar study conducted in 2004, research beagles were fed commercial raw food diets identified as being contaminated with Salmonella organisms. Five of the 7 dogs that shed Salmonella organisms after consuming a raw food diet meal shed a Salmonella serotype that matched the serotype isolated from the diet that was fed [26]. This study used commercial frozen raw food diets that were naturally contaminated, and clinically healthy dogs became colonized after ingestion of a single meal.”

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide to some of these questionable statments!

[pitlove]

Hi Leelina-

“i went seeking online and now I follow Dr. Becker” “In all my research I have learned that EVERY MEAL DOES NOT NEED TO BE BALANCED! Just work on balancing over the week.

It is interesting that you follow Karen Becker, but have adapted the balance over time theory, which is exactly what she warns against doing.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2015/11/08/best-to-worst-pet-food-types.aspx

“Even sale meat is ok for animals, as you know animals have different enzymes in their mouths as well as guts to combat the bacteria and parasites that we as humans cannot without cooking it first.

Mechanical breakdown of food in the mouth is what begins the digestive process in canines unlike humans.
Could you provide a credible source for your statement that animals have different enzymes in their gut and mouth that allow them to destroy pathogenic bacteria & parasites? Information from PubMed or Google Scholar will be just fine.

And lets not forget the risk involved for the humans in the home when feeding a pet raw grocery store meat.

“Dogs that get sick and /or die from bacteria already have had compromised immune systems so please don’t be turned away by nay sayers.”

Again, I’m going to have to ask for a credible source of information on this considering my boyfriends Rottweiler was very healthy before he passed away of E.Coli poisoning.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/42/5/686/317224/Human-Health-Implications-of-Salmonella

“Fecal shedding of Salmonella organisms was evaluated in 20 dogs in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to determine whether dogs would shed the organism after consumption of homemade raw food diets [25]. Salmonella organisms were isolated from 30% of the 10 dogs that were fed homemade raw food diets, but they were isolated from none of the 10 dogs that were fed commercial dry food.”

and in another study

“In a similar study conducted in 2004, research beagles were fed commercial raw food diets identified as being contaminated with Salmonella organisms. Five of the 7 dogs that shed Salmonella organisms after consuming a raw food diet meal shed a Salmonella serotype that matched the serotype isolated from the diet that was fed [26]. This study used commercial frozen raw food diets that were naturally contaminated, and clinically healthy dogs became colonized after ingestion of a single meal.”

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide to some of these questionable statments!

[LEELINA M]

To Pitluv:
I am truly sorry for the loss of any beloved furry family member. As I previously stated I am also new to RAW and we are all learning, this is why we come to these forums. To listen, share and hopefully help. I literally read more and more on the subject online every single day. I’m petrified of getting it wrong and harming my baby girl. I’m 110% committed to her health and nutrition as well as education and training.

While I appreciate your passion, you come off extremely strong for no apparent reason. As the rest of us post advise in which someone was seeking you never actually answered her question, you simply tried to shoot the idea down. My advise to you is to NOT BE SO COMBATIVE. I’m guessing that you work in a traditional vets office or maybe for a big name pet food company. Not judging but the 2 seem to go hand in hand these days. I considered not responding to you at all and writing you off just as Ashleigh did because people like you spend far to much time trolling online for things to be negative about.

In regards to my “questionable remarks” as you put it… I’ll do my best to address them in order they were received. If you read Minnie’s Meal Plan you’ll see that IT IS BALANCED DAILY as Dr Becker recommends. I believe in balance over time as a standard but for now Minnie is a growing baby so I’m gonna pack everything she needs into every single day. On that note Dr. Becker also says to “feed the best that you can, the best you can afford” and the best that I can afford and do for my pet is A HOMEMADE RAW FOOD DIET. I choose homemade because I know exactly what is in it. I wouldn’t feed her anything I wouldn’t eat. The best I can afford is FULLY ORGANIC MEATS AND VEGGIES FROM TRUSTED BUTCHERS AND SOURCES. My situation isn’t everyone else’s situation. Some can only afford sale meats. My advise is simply to do the best you can just like Dr. Becker recommends.

In dogsnaturallymagazine.com there is an article about Salmonella:The Bad Bacteria by Dana Scott and she references a couple vets who break down a dogs mouth and intestines so that its easy to understand why a healthy dog should not be harmed by food borne pathogens. In the case of the poor rotti, there is just no way that you can be 100% sure that his gut wasn’t already compromised. It is very sad and stories like that are why I feed Minnie foods rich in antioxidants and essential fatty acids to help prevent a leaky gut issue.

I guess all I can tell you is where I started like naturalmonarch.com and it just ballooned out from there. I’ve been to too many websites to keep track of or site for reference and I continue to learn every day. I implore everyone to do the same. Also, seek the guidance of a Holistic Vet and or Holistic Pet Nutritionist in your area. Nothing against traditional vets but their clinics and/or schools are funded by major pet food companies and pharmaceuticals. And now i sound like a nutjob, sorry for that 🙂

Everyone please have a beautiful afternoon. Minnie and I are off to the beach
Love, Leelina

[pitlove]

Hi Leelina-

Learning and education does not end when you come across an opinion you agree with. You have to be prepared to be met with information that goes against what you believe. Most who have a true thirst for learning do not get offended by information that conflicts with what they feel to be true, but embrace it. It may not change their mind, but they do not simply run away from a conversation because they weren’t patted on the head and told they were right. You call it “trolling” and “being combative” because you don’t agree with the information presented to you. Does not make it so.

As for “what I do”. I work for an independent family owned pet store and am going to school to become an RVT (registared vet tech). Yes eventually I will work for a traditional vet as I follow and believe in traditional medicine for myself and my pets. I don’t know of any clinic that is funded by a major food company…They are “funded” by the money charged for the care of peoples pets. A service that is very underappreciated.

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