[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shelties mom –

You only want to use one calcium supplement. You can stick with one or rotate every so often. I’ve actually never used bone meal as a calcium source, but the thing to keep in mind if you want to use bone meal is that it contains both calcium AND phosphorus so you’ll have to add more bone meal than you would a pure calcium supplement (such as calcium citrate) to get the ratio in balance. Most bone meal has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio but it can vary by brand. Dr. Pitcairn’s book “Natural Health for Dogs and Cats” contains a guide guide for balancing recipes with bone meal, I’m sure there are a lot of websites out there that explain it as well. If you’re using a pure calcium supplement, the general rule is about 800 mg. per 1 lb. muscle meat and 1,000 mg. per 1 lb. organ meat – as long as you follow that general rule the end result should be balanced. Sometimes slightly more or less can be used depending on the type of meat – i.e.) fattier meats will be lower in phosphorus and thus require less calcium than leaner meats. In my boneless beef recipe above, after the nutrient analysis I found that I only needed 1,400 mg. calcium to get the ratio where I wanted it. The tripe didn’t require any calcium as tripe naturally has a balanced C:P ratio, 85% lean is a little fattier and contains less phosphorus than extra lean meat and my offal blend contains trachea and gullet which only have slightly more phosphorus than calcium. There really wasn’t any reason behind my choosing calcium citrate other than it was available in powder form – I prefer to use powdered supplements when possible. You could certainly use another calcium supplement such as eggshell calcium, calcium lactate, etc. Just make sure the supplement contains ONLY calcium – some add other vitamins and minerals which, if not accounted for, could over-supplement your dog’s meal. I’ve heard that certain calcium supplements are better assimilated than others, but I really wouldn’t worry too much about what type you’re using as long as you’re getting the amount right.

[theBCnut]

The big plus with calcium citrate does not apply to this situation, and that is that you don’t have to take it with a meal. Other types of calcium are absorbed better if they are taken with a meal.

[lauriesten]

What is the Himalayan salt for? Where do you get your juice concentrate?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi lauriesten –

The himalayan salt is to add some sodium – I prefer using himalyan or sea salt over regular table sale as these salts also provide some trace nutrients. Sodium is actually an essential mineral, many people know that it’s harmful in excess but it’s also harmful to be deficient and most homemade diets are rather low in sodium. I order the fruit concentrate capsules from Swanson’s Vitamins sold under “Super Concentrated Multi Fruit Concentrate.” Fresh fruit could definitely be utilized and I occasionally do add fresh fruit, although I’ve found that this supplement provides my dogs with some of the antioxidant benefits of fresh fruit without as much of the carbohydrates and sugars.

[pugmomsandy]

HDM,

Where did you go to do the nutrient analysis?

[Hound Dog Mom]

I used the USDA nutrient database and Self Nutrition Data – a few of the ingredients I couldn’t find on these databases (like some of the supplements) and had to do a bit of digging on the internet to find an analysis. Then I just converted everything to a dry matter basis and weighted all the nutrients based on the amount of the ingredient in the recipe. Very tedious and time consuming. If you can find any free software for analyzing recipes let me know!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Healthy Chicken & Rice

-20 oz Chicken Gizzards
-20 oz. Chicken Hearts
-8 oz. Organic Chicken Livers
-3 Cage-Free High Omega 3 Eggs
-1 C. Germinated Brown Rice (Yields approx. 2 1/2 C. Cooked)
-1 C. Whole Milk Plain Organic Yogurt
-10 oz. Package Frozen Organic Spinach, Pureed
-1 C. Organic Blueberries, Pureed
-1/2 C. See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix
-2 tbs. Bee Pollen Granules
-2 tbs. Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil
-1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother

Yields 3 Servings – Approx. 1,150 kcal. per Serving

(can be separated into smaller servings for smaller or less active dogs)

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a501/hagelult/IMG_2158_zpsfbc8beb5.jpg

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pugmomsandy]

Where do get germinated brown rice? Or can you use quinoa instead?

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’m using Koshihikari Sprouted GABA rice (available on Amazon). Quinoa would be a great substitute as well. When I feed Quinoa I use TruRoots sprouted Quinoa (also available on Amazon I believe).

[mah4angel]

These meals look so complex and scary to me! I’m trying to do some shopping but it’s very overwhelming.

[pugmomsandy]

mah4angel,

If you want to incorporate some raw into the diet you can use up to 20% of raw food to your current regime without worrying about unbalancing the diet. An easy way to add raw is to feed green tripe. It is a perfect food by itself as well. greentripe.com for raw tripe and Tripett for canned tripe. Actually, Merrick and Solid Gold have a canned tripe as well. I also like to use freeze dried raw too and my dogs are small so it doesn’t cost alot and it is convenient.

[Hound Dog Mom]

It’s really not that bad once you get used to it – it can be intimidating at first though. Sandy had a good suggestion with gradually incorporating a little raw until you get more comfortable. Also keep in mind my recipes are bit more complex because I choose to balance the nutrients without the addition of synthetic vitamins and minerals – you certainly could simplify a recipe with a multi-vitamin. i.e.) 1 lb. boneless meat + 1/4 lb. cooked veggies + 1 multi-vitamin + 800 mg. calcium + fish oil – using this general recipe you could provide variety by rotating between different protein sources (turkey, beef, chicken, etc.) and adding “extras” such as yogurt or eggs on occasion.

[Cyndi]

mah4angel, I know exactly how you feel. I have only been feeding my dog raw for a little over a month and a half, but I researched and read everything I could for a few months before I finally pulled the trigger and did it. I don’t feed my Bailey nearly as complex as what HDM and other feed, but my dog IS 100% completely on raw now and doing great. I feel silly now for being so nervous about starting, but I agree I did get REALLY overwhelmed and almost decided not to get into raw feeding. But, luckily you, like I did, found this site and any questions you have someone can answer them. If it wasn’t for HDM and others on here, I don’t think I’d still be feeding raw to my dog. I had so many questions and everyone so graciously answered them. It DOES get easier, trust me! If I can do it, anyone can! Good Luck! 🙂

[mah4angel]

Thanks you guys!!
You should post some of your recipes, Cyndi! I read through this thread and your story with Bailey is awesome! I’ve been incorporating little bits of raw into my Louie’s diet already and HIS POOPS ARE SO GREAT RIGHT NOW! 😀 I think the addition of the flax seed and the yogurt has really helped his tummy (enzymes and fiber), but I really think the raw has been helping. Maybe I’m just crazy (I am crazy but, still… hehe) 😀
HDH, I wanted to get the EXKALIBER grind from greentripe.com, how would I use that in a well-balanced diet (since you mentioned boneless meat and not only is the EXKALIBER not boneless, it also has organ meat as well)? In general, it looks to be a good idea to sometimes incorporate bone-in grinds, and sometimes use boneless meat. I also wanted to be feeding RBM’s (I’ve already started with pork necks) for dental health 😀

[mah4angel]

Not this thread, the other one about starting off with raw feeding ^_^

[pugmomsandy]

I wouldn’t necessarily add anything to the xkaliber. Tripe on it’s own is perfectly balanced with a calcium to phosporus ratio of 1:1. The xkaliber has additional bone which probably balances out the addition of organs in this particular blend. You would have to contact the company to get the exact numbers on the calcium and phosphorus in the the xkaliber since there is only a nutritional info link on the “tripe” product only. It seems to be a compete food in of itself. When I make a batch of food I make sure to add certain amounts of meat/organs/bone to be balanced and I’ll add some tripe. But when I feed tripe, it’s by itself. Is that confusing? I can’t seem to get into words what I mean to say!! Also you might want to introduce tripe slowly as it is high in fat – 95% fat to protein ratio!

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-stink-on-tripe/

This article mentions Mary Voss who is greentripe.com:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/11_7/features/Raw-Green-Tripe_16043-1.html

[Cyndi]

Hi mah4angel!

I don’t really follow any “recipes”, I kind of make it up as I go along. I’m still in the “adding new things” phase. I posted what I was feeding, at the time, a few weeks ago, in the other thread just to get HDM’s opinion on if I was doing ok. What I was feeding then, has since changed a bit because I’ve added a few more things to Bailey’s diet.

Right now, I mix up ground beef, beef organ grind & ground green tripe and I give her about 1/2lb of that in the morning along with either a cage free egg or a pouch of sardines (I do one or the other every other day) & Dr. Harvey’s Multi Vitamin Mineral & Herbal Dog Supplement , and a half of a one a day vitamin, some coconut oil and a spoonful of yogurt. I just started giving her ground whole prey rabbit, so I’ve been doing that every other morning instead of the beef, organ, tripe grind.
For dinner she gets either a half of a turkey neck or a chicken back & a chicken foot and either chicken or turkey livers, chicken gizzards and chicken hearts. I usually rotate the livers and gizzards and heart and do 2 of the 3 every day. I also fast her Sunday evenings.
I get all my grinds and the heart and livers from Hare Today. I still have yet to find a really cheap place to get things, but I’m not spending all that much. I have a local butcher that I get my turkey necks and chicken gizzards from.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Cyndi.

[mah4angel]

Thanks! pugmomsandy, so, I shouldn’t add anything to the green tripe? Or I shouldn’t add any other protein source? I’m pretty sure I should add veggies and fiber/probiotics/enzymes/vitamins, no?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Tripe is loaded with probiotics and enzymes so I wouldn’t add those. You can add veggies and vitamins to balance the meal though. Or if you’re not feeding it as the sole diet and your dog’s other meals are balanced you could certainly feed it for a few meals a week on its own without throwing anything off – tripe is a pretty well rounded food.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

Tripe is usually only lightly rinsed so your dog is getting a good amount of greens(depending on what the cow ate last), probiotics, and digestive enzymes as well as protein and fat. It’s the other things you might want to add.

Also, if you are feeding a meal that you know is high in calcium and phosphorus, but pretty well balanced, you can add tripe to lower the overall amounts, but not throw off the balance.

[mah4angel]

Okay!

And the other things I might want to add would be fiber and vitamins? What about fruit?

(Sorry, just wanting to clarify) 😀

[mah4angel]

Also, does green tripe contain any omega-3’s? Should I add some sources of omega-3’s if not? What are a few different sources of omega-3’s that I can rotate between for variety?

Cyndi is right when she was talking about how great DFA is! It’s so great to be able to come on here and get real opinions from real people without alternative agendas!

[theBCnut]

I add in some antioxidant rich fruit, like berries and for omega 3s it’s oily fish like sardines, salmon, and herring, or some canned oysters.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by theBCnut.

[mah4angel]

Okay and those won’t mess up the balance of the meal? How much of the fish should I put in?
Okay… I feel like I’m getting it a little now. LOL. I’m a work in progress, I know.

[theBCnut]

I only use small amounts so no, they won’t mess up the balance. And you have a couple choices on how to incorporate fish. If you feed 2 meals a day, feed one or two meals a week of oily fish, most of what I’ve read said one, but one source was talking about dogs that seemed to need more oils and it suggested twice a week. The other way is to divide that amount up and feed some every day.

[mah4angel]

I wonder if my Silky would need more oils, I’ll probably start out with one meal a week and then watch his coat.

[pugmomsandy]

According to my recipe book, I can substiture fish for 25% of my meat mixture. Sometimes I mix some whole sardines in and sometimes I just feed them a whole sardine.

[mah4angel]

Okay! So, if he were to eat one pound per day of a normal meal (which would be wayyyy too much for him), I would give .75 pounds of the everyday mixture and then .25 pounds of the sardines, herring, or whathaveyou?

[pugmomsandy]

Sounds right!

[mah4angel]

Yay! Oh goodness thank you guys ^_^
I found a local place over here in Salinas, CA that sells green tripe! My fiancee and I will be headed over there tomorrow hopefully to check out the prices and variety. It sounds like green tripe is all-around great for my Louie I’m so excited!

[Cyndi]

& just to warn you, in case nobody has yet, when you buy some green tripe, it’s supposed to smell like that! Lol! I wanted to see what all the fuss was about over the smell when I first started feeding it to my dog, so I took a big whiff, boy was I sorry. Dogs love it though!

[pugmomsandy]

He-he! It’s a mixture of stinky sneakers and sewage! Oddly enough, by babies’ diapers smelled just like tripe the other day! OMG! What is that mama eating!!!

[InkedMarie]

I use a small amount of fish, three times a week. I currently have herring and they get one tablespoon three times weekly.

[SandyandMila]

What kind of sardines would you suggest? (certain brand) The sardines in water would be best, right?

[pugmomsandy]

Sardines packed in water or olive oil (if that exists), and no added salt. There are many brands to chose from. It depends on if you want wild caught, or fair trade or something special like that. I bought a special one before and it was $3 or more for one package! Now I just get wild caught sardines whole at the Mexican market for less than $1.50/lb. I caught a sale and they were $1.19/lb. There is also canned fish in big cans (like soup cans). I’ve seen mackerel and salmon and some other kinds of fish in 15 oz (approx) cans.

[SandyandMila]

Awesome, thanks! If I use sardines as a topper can I freeze the leftovers? Would I still need to supplement with krill if she has sardines with her meal? Mila’s only had primal freeze dried turkey and sardines. Does sardines go well with other proteins other than turkey?

[pugmomsandy]

If you get a big container and can’t use it up in several days then yes you can freeze but I’ve ony seen small containers of sardines and they’re gone in 2 seconds! I mix a couple sardines into their raw food when i make it with chicken and duck. You don’t need supplementation when you feed fish.

[mah4angel]

The green tripe that was available in Salinas was canned ($4 a can, ouch) 🙁 I really wanted raw. But I picked up some ground frozen chicken patties with bone and organs for $1.50 per pound. Not TOO shabby since I get to forgo the cost of shipping and don’t have to grind myself.
ALSO, I found out that greentripe.com is based in Hollister! Literally, the warehouse is 15 minutes away from my house o_O I emailed to ask if pick-up was possible. I hope so!

[somebodysme]

I haven’t seen any canned sardine that didn’t have salt. Bummer….

[theBCnut]

Sardines are a naturally salty fish so make sure you are checking the ingredient list rather than the sodium content.

[somebodysme]

Yes I didn’t even look at the nutrition list, only the ingredient list. What brands have you found without added salt?

[theBCnut]

I can’t even tell you, it has been so long. I order raw sardines and herring from Hare Today now. It has been almost a full year since I last used a can of sardines, much less bought one.

[pugmomsandy]

There’s several. Crown Prince is everywhere where I live. Be sure to check the ethnic supermarkets too. They’ll probably have whole frozen sardines and they do have a variety of canned fish.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=sardines+no+salt

[Cyndi]

I use the Crown Prince ones too, in the pouch, I get those at Marcs. I was also getting some at Walmart in a tin, but I just had a brain fart while I’m typing and the brand escapes me now.

& Holy Crap Sandy, the Amazon link you posted shows the sardines I get and they’re expensive!! I pay 50¢ a pouch when I get them.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Cyndi.

[theBCnut]

I never could find sardines for the cheap prices that everyone else was reporting, which was one of the reasons I went ahead to buying raw by the pound.

[pugmomsandy]

I think the whole raw sardine is cheaper than the tinned per pound, don’t you think? I bought mine for 1.19/lb. Those packages are only a few ounces.

[shelties mom]

I found canned sardines at Trader Joes for $1.19 a can, they are packed in water with no salt added.

[pugmomsandy]

sheltiesmom,

How many ounces was that?

[shelties mom]

They are 3.75 oz.

[pugmomsandy]

So you paid $5.08 per lb. That answers my question! (5 posts up)

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by pugmomsandy.

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