[Jose Carlos M]

First post here.
I feed my 6 months German Shepherd Orijens Puppy Large.
I am very happy with it as the dog is healthy energetic and has a beautiful coat. The problem is the amount. I am already giving him above the recommended amount and he is generally stressed out in hunger. His vet also says he seems a little thin…
Should I feed him more or should I complement with some homemade food, and what would be the best feeding options?

Thanks.

[pitlove]

Hi Jose Carlos-

Did the vet have any suggestions?

Feeding him a little over the recommended amount does not guarantee you are meeting his caloric needs on a daily basis.

[Olympia B]

Hi!!!

I’m a mommy to a 12 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback.. his breeder fed him diamond naturals large breed puppy food. I have continued him on it since he has been with me. After reading some posts, I’m not sure if I should continue him on the diamond naturals or switch to something else.. please recommend me some good foods for lbp.

[InkedMarie]

Olympia: did you check out the list of approved foods that is in this thread?

[Olympia B]

InkedMarie

I saw a list, but it was from like 2013… I was hoping for something more updated…

[InkedMarie]

Olympia: it’ll be awhile. HoundDogMom, who compiled the list, is in vet school.

[mary s]

Hi Olympia…..I miss HoundDog Mom’s input too 🙁 I thought her list was very helpful.
I am feeding my Irish Setter puppy Fromm Large Breed Puppy food…..the Heartland Gold. You might check the recall lists….I think Diamond has been on there several times. Just be sure to transition your puppy from one food to another in a slow manner over a week or so. Good luck

[Raido L]

Hello

After reading through half of this website and the forum posts I’m still a bit confused. I am currently choosing between Acana or Orijen for a large breed puppy (swiss shepherd, 4months). I read that Acana has updated their LBP food to meet a better calcium ratio, but on the website it already says calc min 1.4, phosphor min 1.0 and the ME being only 3375/kg. This showed results from the calculator as:
Calcium = 4.1 g per 1000 kcal
Ca to P ratio = 1.4 to 1

Orijens minimum claims are 1.3 calc, 1.0 phosphor and ME at 4080/kg. resulting a
Calcium = 3.2 g per 1000 kcal
Ca to P ratio = 1.3 to 1

Can this be accurate as they are both supposed to be premium foods and belonging to the same company? And those are just the minimum ratios.

As a side note, would anyone happen to know anything about a “Tundra” brand?

[pitlove]

No, those figures are not accurate as you have input the minimum amount of calcium and phosphorus. You will need to email the company and ask for the average or max % of calcium and phosphorus. If they provide you with “as fed” or “dry matter” this will not be helpful as the calculator does not work off as fed or dry matter basis.

[Raido L]

But as I understand for the Acana food, 4.1g per 1000kcal is already quite bad, so even if the average or maximum is higher, the resulting ratios will also be even worse? So this food should be out of the question?

I will try and ask for the max % values from Orijen then.

[mary s]

pitluv, Holy cow, now I am confused. What does the calculator work off of, if not as fed, or dry matter??? I understand getting the max numbers, but they are given as either “as fed max, or dry matter max”, at least that is my experience in checking with the companies. And, I am sure I remember reading somewhere in this thread that it doesn’t matter which one you use (as fed or dry matter) as long as you are consistent with the Ca and P measurements.

Anyway, Raido, I am having good results with Fromm LBP food, the Heartland Gold. I have an Irish Setter, and at least for the setters, the Orijen must be too rich…..they get loose poop from that food.

Best of luck,

[pitlove]

Hi mary-

If you actually read the article attatched to the calcium calculator Dr.Mike says the calculator does not work off of as fed or dry matter. You need to obtain the numbers found in a “typical analysis” as those numbers are on a energy basis which is more accurate. A lot of companies (because they do not have a nutritionist) do not understand how to provide those numbers.

Raido-

Yes it is possible that Acana may be even more off balance than that when you get the average or max values from the company. I’d still contact them.

[mary s]

Nope, did not read the entire article….I was going by the posts, and sorting through this thread, which directed me to the calculator, or I would not have seen it. Is someone able to do an updated LBP food list? I understand Hound Dog’s Mom is in school, but it would really be helpful…reading this entire thread, only to find some contradictory info is so confusing.

[pitlove]

HDM spent a lot of time calling companies. It would be too much for me to undertake right now as I am in school for vet tech. The best thing to do is to email companies you are interested in and ask the right questions to make sure the food you want to feed is safe. If a company is confused by your questions or says they can not provide you with the information then pass on that brand.

What did you see in the thread that seemed to conflict?

[Nick B]

Hello,

Margo’s dad here again with another food question. We asked our vet what kind of food he recommended for Margo (11 month old Golden Retriever) and he said that he only recommends Hill Science Diet. Margo likes the food and we have had no issues and the large breed puppy formula seems to be in line with the calculator at 3.3/1000 for calcium and 1.2:1 for phosphorus and 30.1% protein. When we met with a dog trainer they told us that we should not be feeding Science Diet and the only reason the vet recommended is because they get a significant kick back…

I am at a bit of a loss. We are on a budget with her food and Science diet works within that budget, but I do not want to be feeding her something that is not good in the long-run for her. Is Science diet bad? Is there something else similar in price and readily available in most big pet stores for an almost 1 year old golden pup that weighs about 50 lbs.? I have looked up Pro Plan large breed puppy and is has slightly less protein at 28% and there is Blue buffalo wilderness large breed puppy and it is 35% protein but a little more expensive and Nutro Max large breed puppy and it is lower in protein at 26% and 4/1000 in calcium. Both seem in line with calcium and phosphorus. Help!?

Thanks! Nick

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Nick B.

[anonymous]

It is up to you who you choose to believe. Is your “dog trainer” a veterinary healthcare professional? Hope this helps: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

and this: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

[anonymous]

“When we met with a dog trainer they told us that we should not be feeding Science Diet and the only reason the vet recommended is because they get a significant kick back…”

I don’t think that is true.

[pitlove]

Hi there Nick-

I’m with anon101 on this one. Hill’s is one of the leaders in research on large and giant breed puppy growth and nutrition. It is also one of the top recommendations for large breed puppy foods by board certified veterinary nutritionists. Your vet is likely making the recommendation because he believes in the food, considering you will most likely not even be buying her food from his office (hence even if he did get kickbacks from Hill’s it would be a moot point).

If your dog is doing well on the food, enjoys eating and it works for your budget, then it sounds like Science Diet is the best option. Also don’t get hung up on protein levels, as protein has been shown through 20 years of research not to effect growth in LBP’s.

[mary s]

pitluv, I guess I actually did read the article

From the article:
“Important: Calcium, phosphorus and calorie values may be reported as “dry matter” or “as fed”. Either type will work, so long as all 3 are entered using the same type”

pitluv

“Hi mary-

If you actually read the article attatched to the calcium calculator Dr.Mike says the calculator does not work off of as fed or dry matter”

So pitluv, for me anyway, what started out as a great idea has gotten very confusing. I am happy with Fromm thank goodness. This website has other good information too, so I will continue to review – but whew, this thread/LBP food info has got my head swimming. So, as you were 🙂

[pitlove]

Thanks mary! I went back and reread it. I misread something the first time I read that article. The part that says “entering a MIXTURE of as fed and dry matter…” I only read it as “entering as fed or dry matter…”

Just goes to show, there is always something left to learn!

[gmcbogger38]

Veterinarians actually do receive kickbacks for selling Hills products. My veterinarian does not sell nor recommend that food and she even confirmed the “kickback story”. Holistic veterinarians never recommend Hills, but my veterinarian isn’t even holistic, so that is one red flag for me. I spoke with a conventional veterinarian about nutrition (not my personal vet) and he shot down my questions about the low quality ingredients in Hills by saying “you shouldn’t look at ingredients only the guaranteed analysis”. Take that how you want, but from all of my countless hours of research that does not make me feel comfortable with that brand or any company that states the same thing.

Regardless, I do not find the food to be of quality ingredients. A food that is not expensive, but is better in quality that I have personally fed and recommend is Victor. I believe it is the Chicken and Rice and Lamb and Rice formulas that are appropriate for large breed puppies.

With all of this said, though, I truly believe that you should do as much research as possible and feed what you feel comfortable feeding.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by gmcbogger38.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by gmcbogger38.

[pitlove]

Hi gmcbogger-

Victor does not make any formulas safe for large breed puppies. Another poster on here a while back got all the calcium and phos values from the company for their puppy and ALS formulas. None were appropriate.

Just because the front of the bag says “large breed puppy” does not always mean it’s safe. Holistic Select and Nutro Max are excellent examples of that. Also at one point Orijen was guilty of the same.

[gmcbogger38]

According to HoundDogMom, the list provided on this forum has the 2 Victor formulas I stated, on the grain inclusive list, as appropriate. If those are not appropriate they need to be removed off the list, as I have fed those formulas to my Saint Bernard puppy, and I’m sure others may have, as well.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by gmcbogger38.

[InkedMarie]

HoundDogMom is in vet school and not around DFA.

I believe she has posted what makes a good large breed puppy food; anyone reading should double check, using her information, to make sure the food of their choice is okay for large breed puppies.

[pitlove]

The list is 3 years old and formulas can change in 3 years. As I said, recently another poster contacted Victor and with the values given no food from them was appropriate.

[Jeannine M]

I just contacted Victor and this was their reply, although it doesn’t say max %.

Greetings Jeannie,
Thanks for your growing interest in Victor Super Premium Pet Foods.

FORMULA
CALCIUM
PHOS

GF Yukon
1.2%
0.9%
GF chicken
1.6%
1.1%
GF Ultra Pro
1.8%
1.2%
GF Hero
1.6%
1.1%
GF Active dog
1.6%
1.1%
GF Lamb
1.9%
1.2%
Ocean fish
1.2%
0.9%
Lamb meal
1.2%
0.9%
Chicken meal
1.1%
0.8%
Beef Meal
1.5%
0.9%
Senior
1.3%
0.9%
Nutra Pro
1.3%
1.3%
Hi-Pro
1.4%
1.0%
Performance
1.4%
1.0%
Professional
1.4%
1.0%
High Energy
1.4%
1.0%
Multi Pro
1.3%
0.8%

Best Regards,
The Victor Support Team
1-888-428-7544

Untitled-1 copy

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Victor® is manufactured in our own modern Texas based facility.
Several formulas rated 4 and 5 Star by dogfoodadvisor.com and exceed AAFCO Nutritional Guidelines.
All Victor® dry dog food formulas are:
Free from Corn, Wheat, Soy, or Gluten!
Enhanced with Zinpro Performance Minerals, which are the most bio-available complex trace minerals on the market.
Infused with SEL-PLEX organic selenium to improve cellular health by fighting free radicals.
Enriched with multiple Probiotics for building a healthier immune system with improved gut health.

From: Victor Pet Food [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 5:13 PM
To: Victor Pet Food <[email protected]>
Subject: Contact Us – New Contact Us Request

Contact Us

Topic
Product Question

Question or Comments
I am looking for a Large breed puppy food and was wondering if your active dog and puppy or any of your all life stages have the correct ratio of calcium to phosphorous ratio recommended for large breed puppies? I believe the recommendations are-
1.2 to 1.8% calcium
1.0 to 1.6% phosphorus
Calcium-to-phosphorus ratio 1:1 to 1.8:114
However, for some higher calorie foods, the above guidelines may not apply.
Thank you,
Jeannine Moore
Page: http://victorpetfood.com/contact-us/
Unique ID: #1335
Date: January 21, 2017
Time: 5:12 pm

[pitlove]

Hi Jeannine-

Your Ca/Phos ratio should fall between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1. 1.8:1 is far too high! You must also factor in the Ca/Calorie ratio when choosing a food appropriate for a large breed puppy.

[Jeannine M]

I just copied and pasted from the article under ‘What to feed your Large breed puppy’

Recommended
Calcium Guidelines
Fortunately, there’s general agreement among the experts. To meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for growth13 in large breed puppies, a dog food must (on a dry matter basis) contain:
1.2 to 1.8% calcium
1.0 to 1.6% phosphorus
Calcium-to-phosphorus ratio 1:1 to 1.8:114
However, for some higher calorie foods, the above guidelines may not apply.

[pitlove]

I don’t know what article that is. My recommendations are based on literature written by several veterinary nutritionists. Not once have I seen 1.8:1 ratio being the suggested safe upper limit for Ca/Phos ratio.

[Jeannine M]

I would have no idea which is why I have been reading everything I can. I copied this information from an article on dog food advisor not in the forums. So if you hit home and down the left hand column where it has latest article it’s under the heading
“How to Choose the Best Large Breed Puppy Food and Lower Your Dog’s Risk”

So that article is wrong? This is why I am having such a hard time deciding what food to feed my dogs. There is so much conflicting information!😟
Thanks for the information I appreciate all the help I can get!

[mary s]

pitluv, she copied the info from the calculator page on this forum 🙂

Jeannine M, I had a difficult time too, and decided on Fromm Heartland Gold LBP food (the one with beef not chicken). My puppy loves it, and he is thriving…..beautiful coat and poops!! Good luck.

[Jeannine M]

Thanks Mary, that’s kinda where I was going next. I have him on Fromm large breed puppy gold now but my vet was thinking I should try grain free cuz he has rashy ears and his poop is really moist. Not runny but not exactly tootsie rolls either.😊 I was looking for a higher meat content but I will give it a try and see what happens!

[mary s]

Jeannine, yes, the Heartland Gold is grain free….the beef https://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/#heartland-gold-large-breed-puppy.

[pitlove]

Hi Jeannine-

As I said, my information is coming from research and veterinary nutritionists. Apparently that DFA article has been updated recently as in the past it too said the safe upper limit was 1.5:1 and as far as I’ve read, no brand new research has concluded otherwise.

[aimee]

Hi Jeannine M,

The article isn’t “wrong” the levels reported are the ranges that are currently adopted/adapted by AAFCO. AAFCO based its range on NRC recommended and safe upper limits and is that groups interpretation of the available research. NRC minimum Ca level is 2 grams/1000kcals, adequate is 2.5 grams/1000kcals, recommended is 3 grams/1000kcals and safe upper limit is 4.5 grams/1000kcals

I think where the confusion comes in is that veterinary nutritionists, when writing about LBP generally recommend to stick to the NRC recommended level which is 3 grams Ca /1000 kcals. More Ca than that isn’t needed. Considering that there is individual variation in energy intake between dogs and activity levels and even how tightly a manufacturer is monitoring their finished products the best way to avoid excessive Ca intake or even insufficient Ca intake is to stick close to the NRC recommend level which is 3.0.

In regards to ratio it may not be as important as the actual intake amount but nutritionists will recommend to stick to a ratio close to the reported”ideal” of 1.2:1

As for myself, and others too, when you consider you only have one chance to form a sound orthopedic structure I only purchase products from those companies that have shown a vested interest in supporting proper LBP growth and have the quality control procedures in place to ensure that their food is meeting their specifications. I’ve found that it is the larger companies that do this. They’ve actually fed their diet to Large Breed Puppies and monitored growth parameters. This is why you’ll find vets recommending Hill’s and Purina and Royal Canin

[pitlove]

Aimee-

Thank for that articulate explaination of the rewritten article! I couldn’t agree more. What you said is the exact reason I choose foods from the companies you mentioned for my pets.

[Ollie Corso]

Hello!
I have a 120lb Cane Corso who will be 3 yrs in April. I’m trying to find the best food for him, is this food list still correct? -Thank you!

[pitlove]

Hi Ollie-

This list is for puppy foods. Your Corso should be on adult food now.

[Daniel B]

First off I’d like to thank all for your contributions. I appreciate the time taken to educate the rest of us in our pets diets. I will be getting my English Mastiff puppy in about another month and a half. I’m looking at all the articles on calcium and phosphorus. I’ve been considering the Wellness Core and The Holistic Select among others. The breeder has the mother on IAM’s puppy at this time based on vet’s recommendation. I would appreciate hearing your recommendations as to should I continue the IAM’s long term or do the gradual changeover?

[Salz]

Hi all! I am a frequent lurker of this forum, and wanted to ask for some input. I am a pretty knowledgable raw feeder, especially for large breeds, but am adding a new member to my family next week and wanted to ask a few questions.

My partner and I will be picking up an 8 week old Dane puppy next weekend, so I’m doing all I can to prepare for her arrival. I currently have a 1 year old Dobie/Rottie mix who has been on raw since I rescued him at 6 weeks. I did extensive research about Ca/P ratios, fat content, protein levels, etc, and have always had all of that on point with his diet. I kept him very lean at a young age and his growth has been spectacular. He’s still filling out a little and will continue to grow slightly, for the next six months I anticipate, but since we’re almost there I’ve allowed him to bulk up a little over the past few weeks.

I follow the BARF model and feed meat grinds, a veggie mixture, and added supplements a few times per week, but I have kept it pretty simple for him in his first year to ensure proper growth. With the new puppy, I want to start her off the same. My concerns lie in the fact that she is a GIANT breed. I’ve read a lot of articles on Dane forums about not starting a Dane puppy on raw until they are a little older because of their nutritional needs, and this has stumped me and caused some worry. I’m looking for anyone with Dane puppy nutrition experience, especially with raw feeding. Or, if anyone could point me in the direction of any helpful articles or websites, that would be great too. Thank you all for your knowledge!

[wagarfamilydad]

Okay, after reading through all 44 pages of this topic, one would hope that everything is crystal clear, but alas instead it’s clear as mud.

Before I ask my questions, here’s the puppy information:
3 month old Newfypoo

Two questions:
1. What are the benefits of going completely grain free vs a small portion (10% of less) of grains.

2. I was initially looking at feeding either Victor Hi-Pro or Victor Select Nutra Pro and based upon the ratios that have been identified most recently within this thread (ideal 1.2:1), if I am understanding it correctly these two foods would fall in at:

Nutra Pro (1:1)
1.3% Calc
1.3% Phos

Hi-Pro (1.4:1)
1.4% Calc
1.0% Phos

Am I not understanding (which is possible)?

HELP!

[pitlove]

Hi Wagarfamilydad-

The AAFCO just recently revised their nutrient profiles, which meant changing their min and max appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels for large breed puppies. A ratio of 1:1-1.8:1 is now considered safe 1.8% calcium being the safe upper limit.

So yes, those ratios are appropriate.

Grain inclusive vs grain free is a non-factor in LBP growth and should be of the least concern during growth. Dogs are perfectly able to digest and use grains efficently. Personally, my dogs do much better on a grain based diet, and actually even better on corn based diets like Pro Plan.

[Corsomomma21]

Hey guys!

New soon to be LBP mom here.. I pick up my 8wk old pure bred cane corso pup this week. After reading about every post on here and doing tons of research I’ve chosen Fromm heartland gold LBP food. What I’m having a hard time finding is an appropriate treat for training and good praise? I’ve heard a lot of negative about green tea extract and I need something that’s grain free. Just not sure if I should also be worried about the Ca, Calories and Protien with the treats as well??? I don’t plan on giving them to her too frequently but at least in the beginning while training! Any advice on a good brand??

[pitlove]

Hi Corsomomma21-

Too many treats add unneeded calories to the diet and can result in a fat puppy. It is important to train, but not every aspect of training requires a treat. Sometimes praise and pets are the best type of reward. For the times when a treat is really needed as part of her learning an important command such as recalling to you, you can use things that are high value. Cooked or freeze dried organ meats are usually high value. Another good idea is using her food as treats if she turns out to be food driven. You can keep track of how many pieces of dry food you use as treats and subtract that from her meals so you keep the calories down.

Also congrats on the Corso puppy! Between pitbulls and Corsos those are the two breeds I’m most passionate about. I’ve already got my Corso breeder picked out for when we upgrade to a larger house.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by pitlove.

[Jennifer]

First, what a great gathering of other large breed puppy owners – all the great advice is invaluable.

Now on to my questions/ issue. I have a 6 month old Great Dane puppy – Finn is my 4th Dane, one I’ve lost, Shiloh is 13 (a miracle, I know!) and Liberty is 18 months. Until I brought him home I fed all my Danes Wellness Core Large Breed. Then Libby developed allergies so we switched to Wellness Core Wild. And when I brought Finn home I started him on Wellness Core Puppy. Unfortunately he didn’t like it, so after doing a lot of research, I transitioned him to Orijen Puppy Large and my other pups are eating Orijen Regional Red.

Overall, I’m really happy with the food, but Finn’s growth pace has slowed from an average of 5 lbs/week to about 3 lbs/week, which is much sooner than my other pups, and his front paws shake when he’s at rest. The vet checked for growth plate/ligament issues and found nothing of concern.

Has anyone else seen this kind of issue? Has anyone had any issues with Orijen Puppy Large food?

[Crystal R]

I am a new boxer mom. We just adopted two puppies that are roughly 3 months old. They are severely under weight. According to the vet they should weigh some where around 20 lbs. Right now they weigh about 6lbs. The vet said as long as I am feeding puppy food as often as they want then they should be fine. I was just wondering if there is anything else I can do to make them healthier. Any tips or advice?

[Karyn S]

Hello,

Thank you to all who have contributed such a wealth of information to this forum. I will be welcoming a German Shepherd puppy in about a month and have been trying to determine the best dehydrated, freeze-dried or raw diet to start her on. (I do not have the capacity to do an entirely raw diet, but could add raw toppers to a meal.)

I’ve read through all pages and just when I feel I have a direction, something changes it.

I started with HDM’s latest list, which includes some Raw and a couple of THC dehydrated options for large breed puppies. Since the list is a bit older, I reached out to a couple of the companies (Stella and Chewy’s and THC) specific to average/maximum calcium and received conflicting information, which leads me to believe formulas have changed since list was compiled.

I’m also a member of Editor’s choice and there’s only 1 non-dry food option (FreshPet) noted. I have been researching for hours on end and it seems I am nowhere closer to a decision.

Does anyone have recommendations for a dehydrated, freeze-dried and/or raw option(s) that would be safe for a large breed puppy. I’m trying to avoid feed kibble if at all possible.

Thank you!

[Jennifer]

Hi Karyn, I have a Great Dane puppy (8 mos now and 110 lbs) and I feed him Orijen Puppy Large kibble combined with Stella and Chewy dehydrated raw as a topper. He loves it and the balance of nutrition is great to manage his growth rate and I love it because it’s very easy to manage (I tried raw and it was too hard with my schedule and their eating habits) and I feel good about the quality and sourcing of ingredients.

This is the hardest issue to get agreement on among owners, so I eventually reviewed the options I was considering with my vet as a final decision factor.

Good luck! Jenn

[Karyn S]

Hi Jenn, I’ve used Orijen foods in the past and found it to be a good brand. It’s possible that I may not find freeze-dried/dehydrated brands that meets the needs of a LBP and may need to wait to transition her after 8-10 months of age. The information becomes overwhelming to sort through and was hoping for some additional direction frpm those who have more experience. Thank you for your response!

[BigHeart]

My kids and I were planning on getting a dog soon, but sibling 5 month old 37 lb Greater Swiss Mountain/Lab mixes took us by surprise while I was at a shelter. These two super-sweet-eager-to-please puppies had been there a while because of their size and were fast moving up the kill list. We have plenty of room, land, and love – so I adopted them. They have some temporary health issues from being at the shelter, and I’m sure they’ll continue to have significant vet bills after their rough start at life. I transitioned them from the Purina puppy chow the shelter feeds, to Nutro Max Large Breed Puppy food and they’ve been on it a little over a week. They are still having really soft stools/diarrhea. My question is, the increase has my pet budget considerably stretched and I’m a single mom of 3 kids. Does anyone have recommendations on a good quality large breed puppy food that is on the lower end of the price range? Anything under $30 for 25 lbs would be incredibly helpful.

[Author]

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