[Jennifer H]

Thanks. Keeping any dog/puppy at a healthy weight is important but for large/giant breed puppies I can’t stress enough how dramatically proper weight can impact their entire life. As for my puppies, yep I do feed my puppies an all natural RAW diet. I have tested and formulated my mix to ensure it is not only balanced but also to ensure it has the right Calcium and Phosphorus levels for a giant breed puppy. I will admit, the first time I gave a litter of puppies a raw chicken back at about 5 weeks of age I was scared to death. I was simply amazed at how well they took to it. I am now tracking the health and development of the puppies I have kept and continue to feed raw as well as the health and development of the puppies that have gone to new homes and are eating different foods. It is a lot of work, but it is worth it to me. I looked at the commercial RAW diets and kibbles available and just didn’t find any that I felt truly addressed the needs of the large and giant breed dogs, so….. I just took the plunge

[pitlove]

I totally agree about keeping all large and giant breeds lean. I have 2 big guys and I am very picky about the way I feed them and how lean they are! My 8 year old Lab still has good mobility and can run like crazy.

I take it you breed Saints? Did you work with a nutritionist for your recipes for the puppies?
I would be highly nervous too about feeding a homemade raw diet to a giant breed puppy, but it sounds like you put a lot of work into it before trying it out on the litter.

Post some pictures if you have any!!

[Jennifer H]

Wow, I love this. It is so good to be able to learn and share information about nutrition for the big guys. As for me and my food, yes I consulted with vets, nutritionists and other giant breed breeders who have fed RAW before switching my adults. Then I did more research and consulting before starting puppies on such a diet. I am a breeder of Saints and also work with rescue for any large/giant breeds that come into shelters in my area. I have fostered Mastiffs, Great Danes, Pitbull’s, Rottweilers and more over the years. Most shelters aren’t equipped to house giant breeds or aren’t allowed to even take in Pitbulls, so I am on their list to call when these breeds come in. I would gladly post photos but am new to this and not sure how?

[pitlove]

Yes, this has thread has become a great platform, for those who are passionate or have questions, to dicuss the unique dietary needs of large and giant breed puppies.

That is awesome! It is refreshing to see someone put thought and effort into a raw diet for giant puppies rather than just taking any old recipe off the internet.

That is wonderful that you breed and do rescue work. I dislike that responsible breeders get a bad rap. The next puppy I will most likely be getting is a Cane Corso and I already have a breeder picked out. I’ve seen one of her puppies first hand at the small pet store I work for and he was stellar! Thank you for the work that you do with pitbulls. I am a pitbull owner, advocate and lover myself. They need more support!

Umm, I kind of forgot how to post pictures myself lol. Let’s see if I can remember…

No I keep failing trying to do it…

[Valarie M]

Greetings Pitlove,

I came across a post you shared several months ago about food allergies. My pit has break outs on his under belly. I have changed his diet many times. He is on a probiotic. I have tired ACV but the rash comes back. You mention if he has been grain free to take him off it which has been on which was fish formula.

You suggested Hydrolysed Protien and think in another post venison. What brand is your dog on that is helping?

It’s summer here and even though he is in doors he lays on the patio each day and wonder if it is heat related. Also allergy pills haven’t worked either for him 😳

Any help would be dearly appreciated!

Valarie

[pitlove]

Hi Valarie-

My pitbull experiences several different symptoms, each related to different sets of allergies. When he has a reaction to food he develops a red mouth, acne bumps on his mouth and inbetween his digits becomes raw, red and yeast starts to grow. When he is having symptoms of his allergies related to the outside environment he gets sores and flakey oily patches of skin on the under side of his belly (similar to yours) and on his sides by his ribs.

For his food allergies, we did a food trial through the vet using Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Protein for 2 months, to diganose it. After that we switched to Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach. It is corn, wheat and soy free, but not grain free and is fish based. This cleared up all of his food related symptoms and he actually likes it. He is not a fan of fish based foods normally (we have tried many of the “higher end” brands). We stay away from all red meat for my boy because he has been known to be sensitive to beef and lamb. Fish is usually safe for most allergy dogs (but that is not always the case).

Unfortunetly for the environmental allergies, he will continue to get those symptoms every year around this time. We live in Louisiana, so we don’t really have a true winter and our summers are terrible. It’s not a great place for dogs with allergies lol. Best advice I can give you is limit exposure to the outside (no more laying outside on the porch 🙁 ) and bathe him twice a week in Malaseb shampoo. If he does have any excess yeast from his immune system being suppressed by the allergies, this will kill it. It is also very gentle and makes their fur nice and soft.

Don’t forget though, your boy could also be reacting to something in his indoor environment. This is where environmental allergies get very complex. These things can be dignosed vis blood tests through a dematologist or the vet, but it is expensive. Very expensive. If you can afford it though, it’s worth it. Also consider washing his bedding etc in something like ALL free clear which has no dyes or perfumes.

You can purchase it here: https://www.chewy.com/malaseb-medicated-shampoo-dogs-cats/dp/119234

We changed Bentley’s diet many times too before realizing that we were just changing his diet to different brands with similar proteins and not trying something new for him (in his case fish). I would highly recommend doing a food trial through your vet with the Royal Canin prescription food if you think food is an issue. Personally though, your pitties symptoms to me, don’t sound food related, but you never know.

Hope this was helpful!

[Rikki W]

Eeeeeekkk!! Information overload!! I am so confused as to what I should be doing. We just got an English Mastiff puppy. He is 7 weeks old and I have no idea what to feed him. Right now we have him on the food the breeder was using. It is a super cheap supermarket brand that I am desperate to get him off of, but I cant seem to find any steadfast solid scientific backed information. I have been trying to research for over 3 days.

Some sites say protein needs to be LESS than 28%, some say that it doesn’t matter. I notice that the editors choice picks for puppy food have some listed with protein as high as 40%….. sooooo is higher protein really okay then??

It seems that the biggest consistent concern with Mastiff puppies and other giant breeds is their calcium intake. Calcium should be less than 1.5% with a 1:1 ratio to phosphorus. Is this accurate??

A different breeder than the one we actually got the puppy from suggested we just go straight to an adult food however that kicks the protein down and the calcium up.

I need science and studies to help me out here. I work in the medical field and am used to using evidence based medicine. I feel my dogs/furry kids deserve the same standards.

I also have two labs at home. One is 11 years old with the perfect current weight and health. The other lab is 2 years old and he could stand to lose a few pounds. I would love to find a food to just use for ALL three while keeping them all healthy. There is an editors choice for Dr. Tim’s life stages but man I am going to go through food quick with my three beasts and its expensive stuff. I will buy it though if I need to.

Can I just get some thoughts??

Thanks in advance 🙂

And now that I have at least gotten a post in, I will go read back through this thread of 1900+ posts for additional information 🙂

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Rikki W.

[pitlove]

Hi Rikki and welcome-

I can appreciate your desire for science based medicine. To touch on a the points you hit on, no protein is not a factor in terms of correct growth for large and giant breeds. However, Dr. Rebecca Remillard ACVN states on her website petdiets.com, that growing puppies do not require a food with more than 25% protein.

Absolutely, by no means, should you feed your mastiff an adult maintenance diet. This is a tired old myth still thought to be true because it “worked” 30 years ago. Companies are now producing large breed puppy diets designed specificially for slow growth.

The safe upper limit for your calcium and phos ratio is 1.5:1. However, you also need to pay attention to the calcium to calorie ratio as well to keep the pup lean during growth. Overfeeding is a huge factor in devlopmental orthopedic disorders.

As for the choice of food….the two companies that have done the most research on large and giant breed puppy growth and nutrition are Hill’s and Purina. Selecting a large breed puppy diet from either of those companies would be fine. I do understand that some are opposed to using a food from either of those two companies. Dr. Tim’s Kinesis which you mentioned earlier, is safe for a growing giant breed, is formulated by a vet and a nutritionist and has been feed trialed. All qualities that are excellent to have in a food. Not to mention it comes in a 44lb bag on chewy.com. This would probably be my first choice for a budget friendly, good large breed puppy food, not from Hill’s or Purina.

Here is a good article to read that is posted on DFA here:

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

and this is another from the persepctive of a veterinary nutritionist, that outlines DOD’s and large breed puppy nutrition fairly well:

https://msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

[Rikki W]

Thank you so much for your quick reply pitlove! Sadly I am back to the drawing board as it seems the Dr. Tims formula has too much calcium in it. It shows the minimum to be 1.5% therefore I would think the average levels are going to be too high for my growing mastiff pup. Back to the drawing board I go. Who knew this would be so difficult.

[pitlove]

I believe you are looking at the Grain Free version. I’m not. I’m looking at the original grain inclusive formula

Kinesis

[Rikki W]

Ooooo. Thanks pitlove! I think I will go with Dr. Tims after all. I am feeling a little guilty that it’s not flavored. I think I will now run off to find some good soft food for an occasional topper. 🙂

[pitlove]

Truthfully the best topper and only one I would recommend for a large breed puppy is Tripett. It has a perfect 1:1 ca/phos ratio.

[Rikki W]

Oh sweet @ pitluv!! That’s perfect cause I just ordered two different flavors of tripett and two bags of Dr Tims from chewys.com.

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP!! I’m feeling really good about my purchases ❤️

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Rikki W.

[gmcbogger38]

Since Tripett is perfect for large breed puppies, do you think the dry food PetKind now makes would also be alright?

[CircaRigel]

No. The dry food is very different from the canned version with regard to the ingredient profile, and even the canned is meant as a supplement, not as the dog’s full diet. Regardless of what the dry ingredients are, you MUST make sure that the mean calcium/Phosphorus ratio is approximately 1:1, and that it contains a maximum of 1.5% calcium. Most manufacturers list the minimum amounts, so you may have to contact Petkind directly to get the mean and/or maximum levels each variety contains.

[gmcbogger38]

Thanks. I understand the requirements needed, I just was wondering if the poster who made the comment about Tripett being the perfect ratio, knew off the top of their head about the dry food.

[pitlove]

Hi gmc-

No I have not looked into the new PetKind tripe dry food, so I could not tell you. Well not for large breed puppies at least.

[Jennifer H]

Ok so I have two questions to pose for my fellow Large/Giant Breed folks:

1 – In the article “How to Choose the Best Large Breed Puppy Food and Lower Your Dog’s Risk of Hip Dysplasia” it states:

“Yet fortunately, there’s general agreement among the experts that any food intended for large breed puppies should not only meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for growth, it should also contain:
◾3500 to 4000 calories (kcal) per kilogram of food14
◾3 grams of calcium per 1000 calories of food. That value should not exceed the safe upper limit of 4.5 grams15
◾A calcium-to-phosphorus ratio between 1:1 and 1.5:116
Although most AAFCO compliant puppy foods are suitable for small and medium breeds, only a few meet these special guidelines and can be considered safe for large breed puppies. ”
I am in complete agreement on the grams of calcium and the calcium to phosphorus ratio, but can’t help but wonder about the recommendation to have what I would consider high calories per kilogram of food? Please share your thought and opinions on this as it has me scratching my head:)

Ok, for question 2 — this is a great sharing of information regarding the nutritional needs for Large/Giant breed puppies but I am wondering once your BIG PUPPY reaches adult status and is now a BIG DOG, what is the general opinion/consensus of nutrition needs for the adult or even the senior large/giant breed?

[pitlove]

Hi Jennifer-

To answer your first question, those numbers are the recommendation from the NRC (National Research Council) which in conjuntion with AAFCO, sets the minimums for the nutrient profiles in all dog foods. As far as I know there is no legal obligation to NRC for companies unlike AAFCO, however they influence AAFCO greatly and are a good rule of thumb. These are nutrient guidelines you would want to consider in preparing homemade and raw diets as well.

For number 2, my best advice is what you already know. Keep them lean, all throughout life. I find that I can still feed my older large breed (8 year old 75lb Lab) high calorie foods, but still keep him at a good weight, so long as I consider his activity level and any extras that he gets. I also do prefer leaner meats like chicken, turkey and fish. The other thing that certainly helps their metabolism is them being intact. It’s going to be much different with neutered/spayed dogs, as their energy requirements change. It’s said now, with some of the new research, that senior dogs require more of a high quality protein because of their inability to metabolize protein as efficently as their adult counterparts. Some still argue that high protein damages the kidneys etc. Others argue that processing excess protein is a passive process of the kidneys and has no effect on a healthy dog.

[Darek N]

I have 15 month old Golden Retriever and following this forum since I got him also feeding him the rcomended food from the list of safe for large breed. He is not a big fan of kibbles so I got Tripett for toping and he loves it and eats everything no problem. I couldn’t find and answer how often and how much of Tripett can I add to his food. Right now I give him a spoon of Trippet to every meal. Is that ok? Thank you for your help

[pitlove]

Hi Darek-

Yes what you are doing is fine. Tripett has a perfect 1:1 ca/phos ratio, so it can safely be given each meal the way you are using it.

[TonyaGolden]

Hello & Hi Pitlove, thanks for informing me to this forum….

What is this Tripett I keep reading about?

I’m feeding my 8 month old Golden Retriever NB (natural balance, grain free)
I also keep hearing about the calcium and calorie count and what is good for them. I am a new dog owner, so I’m not sure about some things. I want a food that is healthy for her. I know staying fit is key, she doesn’t get much “running time” so she is a tab bit overweight, but I am working on that. The Vet doesn’t seem much help as he can never really give me a straight answer on the calorie/calcium part. The food I’m feeding her says to give 7 1/2 to 9 1/2 cups per day, to me that seems a lot since she doesn’t get much exercise, so I give her 1 1/2 to 2 cups twice a day.

Nutritional Info:
Crude Protein 21.0% Min.
Crude Fat 10.0% Min.
Crude Fiber 4.5% Max.
Moisture 10.0% Max.
Calcium 1.0% Min.
Phosphorus 0.8% Min.
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)* 0.01% Min.
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.3% Min.
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% Min.
Calories
Calorie Content (Calculated): ME = 3,422 kcal/kg, 375 kcal/8 oz cup

[Kathleen C]

OK, I neither have a large and giant breed dog nor is he a puppy, but at my local pet store they sell Old Mother Hubbard treats. I didn’t look to see if they contain green tea, but after reading this I certainly will not buy any for my Boston Terrier. Glad I checked here first.

[pitlove]

Hi Tonya

Welcome to the forums!

Tripett is a canned variety of green beef tripe that is a great topper for kibble because it has a perfect 1:1 ca/phos ratio.

Basically as I’m sure you have learned, excessive calcium and excess weight gain are the two major causes of bone growth disorders in growing large breeds. Some of these diseases don’t manifest until later in life, some manifest early on and then clear up. Either way it is important to feed a food appropriate for a growing large breed. The calcium to phos ratio should not exceed 1:5:1 and the calcium to calorie ratio should not exceed 3g/1000kcals.

Here is the issue….some foods make the claim “All Life Stages” which does mean it can be fed to a puppy or an adult. However, that does not always mean a LBP. Natural Balance makes the claim “All Stages, All Breeds” however that may or may not be true depending on what their nutritional philosophy regarding LBP’s is. Some companies are running on the old tired myth that protein is the main cause of bone growth disorders, dispite this theory being debunked some 20 years ago. They put so much emphasis on low protein that they ignore the calcium content.

Some companies list their “nutrient analysis” right there on their website, which I love! Some do not and you have to email the company and ask for it. Reason this is important is because there is a great tool on DFA here in that thread we orginally were talking on that lets you put in the MAX calcium, MAX phos and the calories/kg of the food and it tells you the calcium/phos ratio and the calcium/calorie ratio. However, you can not use the MIN numbers found on the bag. It does not tell you the true amount of calcium contained in the food. When using the MIN numbers, just about every food on the market would look LBP safe lol.

When it comes to feeding guidelines on the bag, they are simply a guideline. NB is a lower calorie food, so in order to meet the dogs daily caloric requirements, more food needs to be fed. Higher calorie foods would require less. One issue with feeding SO much less than the guidelines is the dog becoming nutrient deficient over time.

A lot of factors come in to play in keeping a dog lean. Being spayed/neutered will decrease metabolism, being less active, consuming too many calories in ratio to what is being burned. Personally, I would reward with something like green beans instead of the Zuke’s treats you are using if you are doing a lot of training with her and she is getting a lot of treats. We don’t use a lot of treats in my house because I’m very careful with my dogs weight. I have 3 kinds of treats right now, each with different kcals/treat and I use them based on how much excersize I feel they have done that day. Many days they don’t get a treat at all because I’m also incorporating raw into their kibble, so that takes up the calories of the treats. Praise is also a good training reward vs a treat.

[CircaRigel]

I know this is a little off topic, but I would like to posit another important factor involving proper bone and joint development in large breed dogs, and I’ll post links to the research. This involves early spaying/neutering. Research involving Golden Retrievers and German Shepherds has revealed that early spay/neuter results in SIGNIFICANT increase in joint disorders. This is something that likely applies to most, if not all large and giant breed dogs. The largest increase in these issues occurs in dogs neutered before 1-year-old, although any sterilization prior to full size does increase the incidence of hip and elbow dysplasia. Many breeders are now recommending (and some, like my Shiloh Shepherd’s breeder, require it in their contract) that dogs not be sterilized before 18 months of age. Link: Early Neutering Poses Health Risks for German Shepherd Dogs, Study Finds. This study also mentions the Golden Retriever study.

There are also additional reasons to avoid early neutering, but I won’t go into those in depth. There are some benefits to it as well, and I will never admonish a person for sterilizing their dog. It’s simply a choice that involves weighing the benefits and risks regarding the specific dog and situation… and whether there is a choice at all, given that rescues are generally neutered prior to adoption. Spaying and Neutering: New Warnings About Health Problems

In my choice, I have carefully weighed the risks and benefits in relation to my particular dog and my specific circumstances. Given that my young Shiloh Shepherd is training as a service dog, and especially because many of his tasks are mobility related, I have chosen to neuter him later, after he turns 2. I would have delayed neutering him even longer, except he has cryptorchidism (undescended testicle), which significantly increases the risk for testicular cancer if not neutered before 3 years of age.

[goldenstar]

Hi pitluv,
You recommend Dr. Tim’s Kinesis (the grain inclusive formula) and that it is safe for a growing giant breed.
I looked at the review and nutritional info. I noticed that the main protein source is chicken meal and is considered a plant based food.
This may be a silly question but would adding fresh lean meat to this food upset the Calcium Phosphorus Ratio.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by goldenstar.

[anonymously]

@Circa Rigel

I have a small breed dog that I decided not to neuter (undescended testicle).
That plan backfired as he developed a tumor in his descended testicle at age 11 and had to go through the whole process then and although he had a difficult recovery, he is still around at 2 weeks shy of turning 16.

Some info here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/06/selected-effects-of-neutering-in-german-shepherd-dogs/

[pitlove]

Hi goldenstar-

Love your new avatar btw! What a cutie!

I’m personally not concerned about plant-based vs meat-based etc etc for a growing large breed puppy. That is something I would focus in on once you know he’s fully grown. I also have no problem with starting a puppy off on chicken. It is a common protein, but why introduce exotic proteins when you don’t need to? There is so much to choose from within the common proteins for variety.

If I were going to add anything at all to the diet it would be raw green tripe. However, as long as there is no bone and the chicken does not exceed 10% of the diet I don’t see the problem with that.

Circa Regal-

That is a great point you bring up and I could not agree more! We decided not to neuter either of our dogs, but even our vet warned us with our pitbull to wait until 18 months old when he was done growing.

I am absolutely a believer in not spaying or neutering early for large and giant breeds especially! It can be so devastating for their growth. Certainly though, it’s tough when you encounter a situation like yours.

[anonymously]

Re: Neutering, in today’s Boston Herald

Dear Dr. John,

In the last month, my 10-year-old Akita has developed two growths on his anal area. They have started to bleed, and they cause him to drag his behind on the ground. My veterinarian has suggested they be removed and that my dog get neutered because the growths are affected by hormones. My dog has been healthy other than a little arthritis and some bad teeth. What would you suggest? I hate the thought of neutering him at such an old age. Do you think I should also get his teeth cleaned at the same time, or would that be too much for him?

One of the benefits of neutering male dogs when they are younger is the prevention of perianal masses, which are usually benign but can progress to malignant masses. Your veterinarian was correct in advising you to neuter the dog. These growths are responsive to levels of testosterone produced by the testicles. Sometimes, if the masses are much smaller, one might try to neuter the dog first without surgically removing the growths to avoid compromising the integrity of the anal sphincter, but since they are causing the dog discomfort, removal is often done at the same time. Do be sure to also have the growth biopsied to see what you are dealing with.

As for the teeth, I would probably add that on to the procedure since it is better to anesthetize a patient once instead of twice, and since your dog is older, there is added risk due to age. I am sure that pre-surgical blood work will be done to assess risk by specifically looking at liver and kidney values, and if all looks good, go for it. Your dog will be more comfortable, have better breath and probably increase his overall health outlook and lifespan. http://www.bostonherald.com/lifestyle/2016/07/owner_worries_about_neutering_older_dog

[goldenstar]

pitluv…Thanks about the avatar…she is changing so fast. She is now in her dumbo faze. Her ears and nose are bigger in proportion to her body. BTW…I adore yours.
Thanks for the info….I have been feeding her Orijen Puppy Large, and I think she has developed an intolorence for it. She had done well on it. But in the last week….Major potty problems. Everytime I reintroduce in small quantities, she again has major potty problems until it is out of her system. At this stage of her development, not being able to give her all the valuable nutrients she needs is so bad. So I am searching for a replacement and fast.
I had a fecal sample tested and it was clean. The vet gave me something to help, but it has not really worked. She is already slim. I don’t want her to lose any weight.
Thanks for all of your information.

[pitlove]

Hi anonymously-

I think you might be misunderstanding what we are talking about regarding spay and neuter in large and giant breeds and/or you may be unfamiliar with how pediatric altering effects growth.

We are not talking about waiting to spay or neuter a dog at old age, we are talking about waiting until the dog’s growth plates have fully closed before spaying or neutering (which for many large and giant breed is between 18 and 24 months). It is much healthier than pediatric altering and allows the bones to grow properly.

[pitlove]

Thanks goldenstar!

That picture was from the Fourth of July. They had a good time playing in the kiddie pool while we grilled.

Could be a lot of reasons that Orijen isn’t agreeing with her. Could be an intolerance, could be wrong kinds or amounts of fiber. I do however think that switching to a food with less ingredients will be helpful because if it is a food intolerance, you will not have to sift through tons of ingredients to figure out which is the offending one.

[anonymously]

Oh, I get it. but, once you make it to 2-3 years old and you listen to the homeopathic vets, all common sense goes out the window.

That is why the shelters/rescues lean on the side of safety and spay/neuter prior to adoption.
Have you ever witnessed a female under the age of 2 go through a pseudo pregnancy?
I have, and it is not pretty. Have you ever witnessed a male dog ejaculate nonstop for over 72 hours nonstop and collapse from exhaustion ( they won’t stop to eat or drink water) because they smelled a female dog in heat within a 5 mile radius? I have, and again. it’s not pretty. It’s inhumane to allow this to go on without intervening (imo).

If a pet owner is concerned about these things, why not find a veterinarian that you like and trust and go by his recommendations?
BTW: Orijen is a good food but it is fattening, my dog with a sensitive stomach can’t tolerate it (vomits). She does well on Nutrisca. Check chewy.com.

[pitlove]

Our 8 year old Lab was displaying some symptoms of there being a female in heat near by, however out of 3 intact males in the house/property he was the only one, so we’re still not sure what it was. Nothing as extreme as you are describing though.

I don’t use holistic or homeopathic vet’s or medicine. My allopathic vet was the one who suggested waiting til he was done growing to neuter. Spay and neuter is a very personal decision. We made the decision not to neuter our pitbull after months of going back and forth and debating on if it was the right choice for him and us. We are very happy with our choice and I don’t let anyone make me feel bad for it.

I value proper growth above all else for a large and giant breed dog.

[anonymously]

Put an unaltered male dog in a kennel (boarding facility) for a few days. When you pick them up and they are covered in dried up sticky semen, what do you think caused this?

Yes, it is a personal choice as to how you take care of your pet….but
I suppose if you pay extra for the beauty bath and ignore the panting and air humping when you get them home, all is well.

[CircaRigel]

As I stated, it is a matter of weighing benefits vs. risks as to whether to neuter your dogs early on not. In large and giant breeds, though, there is a SIGNIFICANT increase in problems with joint issues in dogs neutered young, before their growth plates fuse. https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/early-neutering-poses-health-risks-german-shepherd-dogs-study-finds/ Galen has showed ZERO adverse behaviors being intact, even in boarding or daycare. Given that he is training as a service dog, and one for mobility support at that, I CANNOT have the increased risk for hip or elbow dysplasia. Moreover, my contract with his breeder clearly states not to neuter early. In my particular case the benefits of waiting outweigh any risks. And while there will always be outliers, research has shown that in cryptorchid dogs, the risk for testicular cancer does not increase until after age 3. Also, these risks may be a bit different for small dogs, (which was the dog mentioned by “anonymously”), given that they tend to mature at a younger age. We are specifically talking about large breeds here, ones prone to bone growth disorders and joint problems.

[Acroyali]

Any male dog that makes it a routine habit to ejaculate for 72 hours straight is hormonal, over-sexed, and needs veterinary intervention, ASAP. I’ve had intact boys my entire life, some neutered at 2-3 and some never and have never dealt with this, nor have I dealt with dogs lifting their legs in my home, or in the homes of others. They didn’t roam, fight, or “get aggressive”. De-sexing a dog early doesn’t automatically make it a calm, laid back pet, incapable of humping or leg-lifting. Having been in the dog business for decades I can honestly say the majority of humpers and leg lifters have been the product of pediatric neuters. I’m glad breeders are recognizing this and educating their puppy buyers that most “bad male dog” behaviors are a training issue, not a body-part issue.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Acroyali.

[anonymously]

I have owned dogs for decades too, neutered and intact. In my experience an intact male dog exposed to a female dog in heat will become frustrated and very uncomfortable. Sometimes aggressive.

The dog I mentioned above was 4 years old and neutered shortly after the event. The vet wondered if the kennel had used the dog for breeding (without my consent) to cause such a reaction.
The dog was a Yorkie and positive for cryptorchidism.

[anonymously]

PS: I do agree with waiting till dogs are about 9 months old before spay/neuter, if possible.

[Acroyali]

I’ve heard of boarding kennels using intact dogs for breeding, and whoever does so ought to be shut down. A place in my area was caught red-handed by the owner of the male dog. They were livid as the dog was rescue (no health background) and had recently been non-communicably ill, which caused the vet to recommend post-poning the surgery. I was sold a pup from a rescue many years ago with the OK of neutering at 6 mos vs. being neutered at 8 weeks before I brought him home, and they did indeed call the vet to make sure the dog had been sterilized. I really respected their allowance on the issue, however I can understand their point (in pediatric neutering before allowing a puppy or kitten to go home with a new family.) There are just too many people out there that worship dollar signs, unfortunately.

[CircaRigel]

Anonymously,
While that may be so for smaller dogs, with large and giant breeds it is now recommended to wait until at least 18 months-2 years of age to ensure the growth plates have fully fused. If you looked at the research, all dogs neutered prior to a year old had significant increases in hip and elbow dysplasia, and it was still increased although to a lesser extent, in dogs neutered below 2 years of age. I might have done it at 18 months for Galen, but since he’s small for a Shiloh Shepherd and still is showing some signs of gaining in height, I’ve chosen to wait an extra 6 months until after he’s 2. At the same time, I’ll be getting him preventative gastropexy to prevent GDV (Gastric Dilation volvulus, a condition commonly known as bloat and quite deadly), to ensure his risk is significantly lowered for that. Fortunately his VPI/Nationwide insurance now has a plan that covers preventative gastropexy, the only plan I know of that actually does cover it! The biggest key, though, is closure of the epiphyseal plates (growth plates).

[CircaRigel]

Acrolayli,
Not all breeders are like that. I went through a breeder because with a service dog, I wanted the best possible chance for success. I selected my breed and breeder VERY carefully. The breeder I chose really makes zero profit off her dogs. Everything she earns from the dogs goes straight into her dogs. All of her breeding stock have had full genetic testing. There are PennHip results going 13 generations back showing excellent results for all of them. All of her dogs undergo full temperament and physical testing, and extensive prenatal care. Every potential breeder is given a 24h heart monitor to rule out a genetic arrhythmia, and she even takes a 2 month leave from her job as a cardiac nurse in order to give the puppies her full attention 24/7 during their early growth stage until they are transferred to their prospective owners. I chose her due to my research, but I feel truly blessed to have found such a responsible breeder. Due to the extensive care in the health of both breeding dogs and puppies, I’ve been given a much higher chance of having a healthy dog who will be able to fulfill all of the service dog tasks I require over many years. I’ve not been disappointed at all. All of Galen’s vets are impressed with his physical conformation, his health, and his temperament. HE is a willing learner, and eager to help. In all, he is EXACTLY what I needed, especially as a first time service dog owner/trainer (although I do have some assistance from a professional organization). She even consulted with the trainers at the organization when having the puppies tested, to ensure I received the one most suited to my specific needs. Here’s a video of him the other week, demonstrating his retrieval skills… although he got rather enthusiastic and went on to bring me his bag of boots as well! Galen the Goofy Shiloh Shepherd Service Dog (in training) Demonstrates Vest Retrieval

It’s one of the more recent skills he’s truly mastered. Bear in mind, he IS still a puppy… an adolescent.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by CircaRigel.

[pitlove]

Anonymously, I do not board my dogs or my cat. I’m not here, nor is anyone else, to defend their choices about castrating their dog. I’m here to talk about and offer advice on large breed puppy nutrition. That’s it.

[Kenneth A]

Hound Dog Mom: Thank you for all of the advice regarding food choices for large breeds. I purchased my English Style Lab from a Vet, Breeder and competitor of show quality dogs. My wife and I just wanted a family companion, couch potato to replace our Lab we lost at 9.5 years to cancer. The breeder fed all of her dogs Pro Plan and we have kept Earl on Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy. He is currently 6 months old and shows no negative symptoms. However, I am not happy to learn this site (which I joined because I want to be informed) rates Pro Plan at 2.5 stars.

A small Pet Store Chain just opened a branch store a couple of miles away from where we live. The sell many of the foods that are rated 4+ Stars on this site so I will be changing Earl’s Food Soon.

Since Earl is not experiencing any problems with his current food what should I look for in determining the best food to switch him to? I know I will need to blend the new food with the old for a few days. He currently does not scratch, has no ear infections and has relatively small stools. So, I want to change to a higher rated food but I don’t want to create any issues for Earl.

Please express advice and opinions. I am leaning toward Fromm Dry Foods!

Thanks,

Ken

[anonymously]

Maybe it was slightly off topic, but, I responded to a specific poster, I provided a link to an article that provided Science-based Veterinary Medicine. I believe someone reading this forum may find the information it contains helpful. If not, ignore it.

[pitlove]

Hi Kenneth-

Welcome to the forums. Hound Dog Mom hasn’t been able to post on here in quite some time due to school, so I don’t know that you’ll ever hear back from her. I can however, try to help.

Here is 2 articles from DFA that may help you understand large breed puppies and choosing a dog food a little better:

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

/choosing-dog-food/brand-guidelines/

It is interesting that when you read through the second link the rating that Pro Plan recieves does not reflect those criteria that Mike has outlined. In fact Pro Plan makes a excellent choice when using those 9 tips. Another thing to be mentioned is that Purina is one of 2 companies that are the leaders in research for large breed puppy nutrition and growth. While some may choose other brands or diets other than kibble, many show dogs are fed Pro Plan as well. Personally, I see no reason to switch simply because this website rates it 2.5 stars, especially since you’ve noted your dog is doing quite well on it.

However, if you are insistant, I would highly recommend looking at Dr. Tim’s Kinesis (not the grain free one). It is formulated by both a vet and a nutritionist and has gone through AAFCO feeding trials and if star rating is of that much concern, it is rated 4 stars.

[goldenstar]

Hi pitluv…
Did you ever find out if Holistic Select Large Breed Puppy food’s calcium and cal phos levels where too high? Thanks

[pitlove]

I didn’t, but I just contacted them through the website and asked for the nutrient analysis for that formula. When I hear back from them, I will let you know. It most likely does meet the requirements, but I never just trust the front of the bag.

[goldenstar]

You are awesome pitluv. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[CircaRigel]

Anonymously,
I have to wonder about your source for that info on joint disorders being no different in dogs neutered and spayed early. I do not see any peer reviewed scientific articles associated with those findings. The UC Davis study is very extensive and very thorough, and has clearly shown that the younger a dog is sterilized, particularly German Shepherds and Golden Retrievers (which likely is replicated in most large and giant breeds), the greater the incidence of hip and elbow dysplasia, along with ligament disorders. This risk declines after 1 year old, but continues to remain increased through life, although the greatest decrease in neutered dogs is after the epiphyseal plates (growth plates) have fully fused… and it is for this reason that many breeders of large dogs ARE requiring clients to wait until the dog is at least 18 months old before any spaying or neutering (which includes my own contract). Given the close relationship of the Shiloh Shepherd to the German Shepherd, I have paid very careful attention to all of these studies in making my choices…. in particular because I DO need a structurally sound dog to help me in the form of mobility support as a service dog. I also chose the Shiloh (and his breeder) due to the fact that there are extensive records of PennHip and OFA tests going back 13 generations, with only those with the most excellent scores being permitted to breed.

Again, it is a personal choice, but given how debilitating the dysplasias are, I feel it better to wait. Galen will still be neutered, with the associated increased life span, but it won’t be done pediatrically. In addition, while mammary tumors are more common in un-spayed females, many other cancers are actually LESS prevalent among intact dogs. The leading causes of premature death for unneutered dogs involve accidents, often the result of roaming. Galen has no tendency toward roaming and has a perfect recall, so that is not a concern of mine.

I also have worked as a vet tech and seen the various pros and cons in the veterinary practice, but rather than having that influence my decision, I based my choice on the current research, my particular dog, and my particular circumstances. It may be fine to neuter smaller dogs earlier, for their joints have far less weight bearing, and those dogs tend to reach adult maturity sooner, with closed growth plates.

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