[InkedMarie]

Betsy, are you sure you paid that price for a ten pound of Zeal? I ask because the going price is $108, give or take, sale or no.

[DogFoodie]

DOH!!! NO!!!

Dang, it! I was wrong, it was a four pound box! See, this is why I wish we could edit a post for more than just a couple of minutes after writing it. I hate that my previous post had that much misinformation.

So, to redo the numbers:

$48.86 for FOUR pounds of Zeal equals $12.22 per pound, divided by 16 tablespoons per pound equals .76 cents per tablespoon x 2 = $1.53 for my two tablespoon serving x 2 = $3.06 for my daily two toppers. It would be cheaper with Thrive, which is on HDM’s LBP’s approved foods list.

OK, still not terrible, but not as good. : )~

That’ll sooo teach me that when I’m busy at work I should be working and not be trying to sneak in and mess around on DFA!! I’m apparently just not as good at multi-tasking as I once was.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by DogFoodie.

[Tucker]

Hi Patty, RDM, and everyone who has been so helpful. Hope everyone is having a wonderful day wherever you hail from. I think Tucker’s OCD is making me OCD…lol

After reading everything here, following the links, talking to my breeder, my ortho surgeon who is the Pioneer of reconstructive surgery, and a bunch of stores, and an AKC trainer and show people I have finally come to a conclusion. To all of you newbies out there as overwhelmed as I am wanting to do the very very best for our kids I hope this helps you on your journey for perfection. I understand the madness 🙂

First anyone who is considering food from Costco… DONT! My Dr. was adamant about not using there food for all of the reasons that are listed in the thread. So if it helps anyone, that is what I got from the doctor’s mouth and he is old school conservative. As a side note, I asked about the antlers and he said he wasn’t as concerned about the calcium as the little horns or pieces breaking off and getting stuck in the gums and causing abscesses. he has gotten a couple. Who would of thought? just wanted to share the 411.

As for the food I am starting off with Earthborn Meadow Feast. You get grain free, perfect calcium balance and a slightly higher protein percentage than most of the standard stuff with grain. There seems to be a lot of problems with soft stool ramping the protein in such a jump so this should help for a smooth transition and eliminate both the chicken and grain as potential itchy causers.

Then jump to Earthborn Coastal Catch with 32% protein – same family of foods with a moderate protein jump. Best chance of easy transition.

If all goes well with the protein the we jump to the Wellness Core Puppy with 36%. Get a blend of meats and see how the itchies hold up. I’m guessing not an issue since his diet will be so well balanced he will be GLOWING by that point!

If there are any issues with soft poop from protein I will slide a bag of Dr. Tim’s Kenesis in there to stay at 26%.

Tucker is 4 months now so that rotation will take him to 8 months. Should I do another round to a year old or does the debate start all over again at that point lol 🙂 If all is good I would guess we head to the higher proteins for the 8-12 months and beyond? I am in Los Angeles so fortunately I can get just about anything.

As for toppers the store gave me samples of THK zeal, embark, and love. Now I see what you are talking about. That is quite expensive. But as a topper just a little here and there not bad at all. I also got a can of PetKind wild salmon and Lamb Tripe. Is anyone familiar with these? Are they OK?

I didn’t focus as much on the toppers reading, but figured that was the next step in the evolution here so I bought a few to get ready 🙂

I have small bags of other 5 star foods on the list that I am not going to use in the rotation. Is it OK to use those as training treats or best to stick with what he is eating.

Also if there are a few magic toppers or daily doses you all swear by I would love to know.

Thank you again for helping me figure this all out. It feels right and makes sense.

After speaking to everyone else out there I can confidently say there is no better place for nutritional advice than right here! Thanks

ps. how do we get a photo up there like some of you have? I would love for you all to meet Tuk

[theBCnut]

Register on Gravatar for an avatar. Just to be on the safe side I would go to at least 10 months on the controlled calcium foods. As long as you keep your treats and toppers to under 20% of his diet then you don’t have to worry about them being slightly too high or too low in the calcium department. I always add a source of omega 3s(sardines, fish oil, etc.) to kibble and I like to add coconut oil too. I give a multi-strain probiotic a couple times a week. My gassy intolerant dog always gets digestive enzymes.

[InkedMarie]

Tucker: sounds like a good start! You’ll see what works and they all may!

Betsy: sorry I burst your bubble about the Zeal. If thats what you paid, I was going to demand to know where you got it LOL

[goldenmom]

Which is the most updated list for recommended food for large breed puppies. From what I see there are 2 different ones I have seen. I will be getting a golden retriever puppy at the end of February and would like to have the most recent list to use.
Thank you

[gsdmommy89]

Goldenmom:

The most recent one is on page 57, the one with grain-inclusive, grain-free, and raw foods.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Goldenmom,

Here’s a link to the most current list. It includes grain free, grain inclusive and commercial raw:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1

[Tucker]

Hi All,

Tucker seems to be doing fine on the Earthborn Meadow Feast day one with a 25%/75% new to old. I just noticed that the bag shows for a 30-40 pound pup only up to 2 cups. That seems so little? The Wellness Core Puppy is 3+ cups and has a much higher protein. Neither has grains. Am I missing something?

I was wondering if anyone knew why Earthborn Meadow Feast has such a low serving suggestion with a lower protein%? Seems like it would be reversed.

Or do I need to forget about what the bag says and start using all of those calculations you have in here to dial in quantity to feed?

Thanks for the help

PS. Because of all of your help and what I have learned here and shared, my breeder told me she was going to have to research and rethink her feeding program. Pretty cool. You guys just made generations of healthier lab puppies. 🙂

[theBCnut]

The amount to feed has more to do with the fat level than the protein level. Carbs and protein each have about 4 kcal per gram, while fat has 9 kcal per gram. That being said, different dog foods use different feeding guidelines, so they aren’t all telling you to feed the same amount of calories. One bag might do feeding recommendations as if every dog was an athlete, another one’s recommendations might assume every dog is a couch potato. When I’m switching from one food to another, I try to be aware of the calorie count and try to keep that close to the same. Once I have them on the new food, I watch for the slightest sign that they are getting too little or too much and adjust accordingly. The foods that I feed regularly, I just know how much of that food each dog needs.

[gsdmommy89]

Hi all. Quick question. I will be going down to the local feed store to buy a few different bags of kibble. As I previously stated, my GSD is currently on Earthborn Coastal Catch. Is it ok to mix grain inclusive with grain free? or commercial raw with kibble? Maybe this question was asked before, but I went through almost half of this topic and I probably just completely missed it because I could not find it anywhere. Thanks everyone

[kms]

Patty Vaughn, RecueDaneMom and all –

Just wondered what your opinion is on my Augie update from last week. We started the Royal Canin HP – today is the last day of a 10 day transition. So far, his stools have improved quite a bit. The only diarrhea in 10 days has been on days he exercised very hard – and usually by end of the day it’s back to formed or semi-formed. But I am really worried about the food. It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the 1st ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc – plus, there has been so much bad news on rice lately. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Seems like I’m fixing one problem and creating another. The vet doesn’t want me feeding anything but this kibble for 2.5 months (and he’s ok with me continuing Probiotics). Would feeding a 7 mo pup a food with only 19% protein for that long hurt him at this important point in his development? I called Royal Canin and they said the actual protein level is 21% and actual fat is 19%.

Thank you so much for any help!!!

[theBCnut]

Hi kms

I really don’t have an answer for you. I don’t like that low a protein and I don’t like that food, but I really think you are juggling between 2 different problems and for at least a short while, you probably need to go with a food you would rather not be feeding to get a handle on the problem. Hopefully, you will be able to add single proteins to his diet sooner than the full 2.5 months, but I feel that this may be one of those rare times that these diets actually have a legitimate place. Sorry, I have no definites for you.

[gsdmommy89]

Hi 🙂

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question I asked a few days ago. I just wanted to know if it would be too much to mix grain-inclusive with grain-free foods or kibble with commercial raw? I’m going to try a few small bags out for my GSD that seems to have become bored of his current food (Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch). Also, I do remember someone telling me about probiotics, but can’t seem to remember which one it was. All I remember is that Swanson Health Products sells it. I looked up the website and I believe the probiotic was Dr. Stephen Langer’s 15 strain with FOS? Does anyone know about that? It’s on sale right now at Buy One Get One Free so if it’s that one I want to stock up.

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I’m becoming annoying 🙁

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi gsdmommy,

Yes, Stephepn Langer’s 15 strain is the probiotic you want. There is a debate as to whether it is ok to mix kibble with raw. It seems some dogs do fine with it while others don’t. I mixed raw with kibble for my Dane for months and he was fine. Now he eats raw and THK, no kibble. Some people say that because the kibble takes longer to digest than raw that the raw stays in the digestive tract for too long and gives bacteria time to multiply and possibly make your dog sick. I’ve never had it happen but there are people who are very passionate about it. I think it is fine to mix grain-inclusive with grain-free kibble. People mix kibble all the time. I wouldn’t do it long term because you miss out on the benefits of rotation but if you’re doing it short term to see what your dog tolerates/does well on then I thinks it’s perfectly fine.

I hope that was helpful. 🙂

[theBCnut]

I don’t mix kibbles together but I rotate, feed one one week and another the next. Last winter, I was even rotating different kibbles every day. I mix raw and kibble every day. I have only ever heard of one single dog that had problems with doing that and have heard of probably a hundred or more who don’t. We eat stuff that digests at different rates all the time without the stomach upset that they say it causes. Dr Langer’s and Soil Based Organisms are my 2 favorites from Swanson’s.

[gsdmommy89]

Thank you RDM and Pattyvaughn. I wasn’t going to mix the grain inclusive with grain free. I’m going to try each of them separately and see which ones he likes the most. I guess I didn’t word my question the right way, haha. But I’ve decided to stick to grain free. I bought the Earthborn Meadow Feast, Canine Caviar Wilderness, Fromm Surf and Turf, and NVI Rabbit. Anyway, about the probiotics; how much do I give him? He’s about 60 lbs.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by gsdmommy89.

[theBCnut]

I would give the contents of 1 capsule every other day.

[Sully’sMom]

I just mistakenly posted this under a potato grain free forum…this is where I intended to go (that’s what I get for rushing while I’m at work!):

Hi all, I’ve been silent for a while. I did pose this question on a forum under Supplements, but thought I’d come back to my reliable group and post it here as well, as there’s always so much invaluable help and not sure if all the same parties participate in the different forums. Thank you for your indulgence:

Sully (1 yr, 7 mo yellow lab) has recently been diagnosed with allergies, most specifically to dust and storage mites (there are others, but these are the biggies). If anyone remembers us, we’ve been dealing with this for awhile, so this is actually a welcome finding – at least now we can proceed with some action! I was reading an article in the Nov 2013 issue of Whole Dog Journal about the wonders of coconut oil, and I thought this might help. Can anyone offer opinions/advice? Recommendations? It seems from the picture accompanying the article that there is no shortage of product options!

Appreciate any help I can get, as I’d like allergy resorts to be a last resort, not a first. Thank you!

[Lablubber]

Hi it’s me again..

I have almost completely finished transitioning over from the food my breeder had my pup on to Blue Chicken and Rice Large Breed Puppy Food with nothing but good results. I have taken a little over a month and 4 days to accomplish that in and his stool are solid and no stomach issues…. Right now I am at 80 % transition 80% BLue/20% Purina Puppy Chow Lg. Breed Food. Right now I am also adding a teaspoon of coconut oil, a teaspoon of ground flaxseed and some fish oil, about 1000mg.

I am not using any toppers except at night for his supper meal and that is canned Blue Puupy Food about a 1/5th to 1/4th of a can. And his coat is shiny and he seems to be doing very well on it…

But for me where my problem arises is from me reading and listening to all of you guys….I almost feel like if I am not alternating out a bunch of different foods and using different kinds of toppers and adding numerous supplements to his food, then it makes me feel like I am shortchanging my dog???

And please believe me….. I have not spared any expense on my part that I know of concerning him and I really do not want to do the raw diet because I have had too many people I know who have had their dogs, get serious bacterial infections from it and some have even died from sluffing off their intestinal lining and dying of anemia before they could be saved by IV feeding and a harsh round of antibiotics.

So for me….This particular dog is just way too valuable for me to ever chance that and believe me I am not here to make any enemies by saying that but I just want you know my logic behind what I am doing with him so far. But then I also have to say this as well and something that I have found out in life myself and some wise words of wisdom and that is this…. Just because someone does something different or feels differently about another idea or approach to your particular way of doing things….Doesn’t neccessarily make them wrong….It just makes them different…! There i said it…My sermon for the day….

So anyway I took painstakingly long with my Labrador Retriever pup after listening to all of you guys and even forsaking what my vet said and changed over to a food that I read about and researched over for many hours and also a food that I had access to, to buy very readily, that I didn’t have to worry about ever running out of even where some of the online food stood the chance of having weather related delays in shipping, that it would not be running. And so I chose a food that I have seen proven to do well with my friend’s large breed dogs. And then I made a just a very few additions to the food, just to make me feel better.

I did as all of you said ion here and I cut out the milk replacer that I had always feed my pups for the first six months of their lives and longer is I saw the need to do so and I did thatimmediately. So anyway…He appears to be doing extremely well. Although he had to have several surgeries yesterday because he had a slight hernia that had to be repaired from a overzealous Lab mother licking him over and over all the time and never letting his navel ever truly heal up right. The he also had a dewclaw removed that either regrew or was missed by the breeder’s vet originally and he also had a place on his leg that had been cut while he was young at the breeder’s kennel that did not grow back right and so my vet did a little cosmetic repair there as well while he was out at no charge and she also micro-chipped him as well while he was out due to the fact that she hates to stick such a big needles in pups at that age if she can help it and so she prefers to have them out at the time of insertion and so she did that procedure as well..

So needless to say, my little fellow was exceptionally glad to see me when he I cam to pick him up….. He came home though like the walking wounded with a front leg dewclaw removed, a back leg, scar tissue repair, a hernia repair and a microchip inserted just at his shoulders along with an antibotic shot just above it, wearing an Elizabethen (sp.) collar to boot, so he was not a very happy puppy last night…. And today he is wired to a tee at work with me here today, needless to say.

So now for the advice part part….. Is the extra stuff I add to his food….The tsp. of coconut oil, the fish oil (which will be changed over to Krill oil when it gets here) and a teaspoon of ground flaxseed meal added to his food twice a day… Does all of that sound good to the ones in the know on here to be adding to his food or is that an over-kill???

Then on the medical part or at least the vaccination part of his regime…. He has had 3 series of shots so far… And I plan on having one more done just to be on the safe side, although my vet. says the 3 completes his regime. Plus he still has his Rabies shot coming up as well…. So does that suffice for his puppy shots being complete or is there anything more I need to be checking into???

I have read quite a few vets who did not reccomend them getting coronavirus or leptospirosis shots anymore(As well as my own vet feels the same way). But for me…Jess will be competing in AKC and UKC Hunter Retriever Trials and therefore he will be around a whole lot of other dogs in close proximity, so I just want to make sure that I have all of my bases covered with him as far as shots, intranasal and any other immunizations that he might need.

I am going to look into get his Lyme and Botedella vaccinations as well, but what is you guys thoughts on a working retriever and his vaccination requirements???

So that is about it today and I know i write very long but I figure if I don’t know, I never will without asking… So thank you for your patience…

Lablubber

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sully’sMom ~

My Mystery started life with a dandruff problem. At 10 weeks, when we got him, he was flaking all over the place. A trip to the vet to find out if he had bug problems turned up negative but the vet gave me an Omega supplement. A month later the condition was worse. I emailed the breeder and asked if any litter mates were having problems. They weren’t, and he suggested adding Canola oil to Mystery’s food. Nope – we don’t add anything that has been linked to cancer.

Finally, I came across an article in Dogs Naturally Magazine that said coconut oil was good for any number of issues, including skin problems. Further research indicated I should start with 1/4 teaspoon per 10 pounds to Mystery’s food. It was mentioned that adding coconut oil might cause a bit of diarrhea initially so I only added it to his morning food.

A month later and I stopped finding dead skin in and around his crate every morning and the only difference in his stools was that they were consistently normal – neither hard nor too soft. He’s been getting about a tablespoon (since the oil is solid I just eyeball it using a regular spoon), every morning for three months now. He’s still clear and his coat is sooooo soft.

I can’t speak to allergies but from everything I’ve read, it can’t hurt to add coconut oil to Sully’s diet.

The best oil is going to be organic, extra-virgin, cold-pressed. I found mine at Sam’s. Hope it helps!

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you Sharon!

Your path sounds similar to our own. Began with several different vet visits for ‘isolated’ incidents, until thanks to all my reading, and in large part this forum, I realized these weren’t all isolated incidents. Thankfully, the vet took me seriously! We began down the road to find out what was the cause. I, too, called the breeder to inquire about the parents, littermates, etc. Nope, nothing. Just us!
I also stumbled upon the Dogs Naturally article yesterday…between that one and two in Whole Dog Journal, it sounds as if coconut oil is going to be a good thing!
Thank you for all your input 🙂

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sully’s Mom ~

I forgot to mention that on my second visit to the vet, they recommended a Virbac brand shampoo. Shortly after the second bathing I got an alert from PetMD regarding a carcinogenic ingredient in the shampoo. CA has banned the shampoos and when I looked at the bottle, sure enough, it said it wasn’t to be sold in CA (we’re in NC). I took what was remaining back to my vet for a $37 refund.

The offending ingredient is DEA, Diethanolamine, and you can read the article here: http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/pmahaney/2013/nov/have-you-been-using-a-cancer-causing-shampoo-on-your-pet-31037. Apparently, it is widely used in other shampoos as well.

We’ve lost a cat and very recently a Golden to cancer. Mystery has been enrolled in the Morris Foundation’s Lifetime Golden Retriever Study – on CANCER! That’s just what I need, a shampoo with a carcinogen in it. And it wasn’t just Mystery I was putting at risk, I had that shampoo on my hands too.

My vet hadn’t heard of the DEA link to cancer but when I dropped in a few days ago I noticed there were no Virbac shampoos on his shelves anymore.

Thought you might want to know in case your vet suggests a prescription shampoo to help with the itching. I hope the coconut oil works though, since it’s all natural.

[Sully’sMom]

Sharon that’s interesting. During our months long experience, our vet did suggest a prescription shampoo and I declined!

We’ll definitely be trying the coconut oil 🙂

[Sully’sMom]

To Rambunctious: A nice, inexpensive topper is sardines! You can get a can at your local grocery store for about $1.00. I get two servings out of the can. Make sure you buy ‘in spring water, no salt added.’

[Sully’sMom]

Someone (can’t remember who?) was talking about their dogs losing interest in the food before they finished the bag. Depending how long it takes to get through the bag, this could be one cause as to why they lose interest. I just read this in the Feb issue of Whole Dog Journal:

“….The longer the food is exposed to oxygen once the bag is open, the faster it oxidizes. While buying very large bags makes the most economic sense….., it may not always make the most sense for your dog’s health. Many dogs start turning up their noses at a food by the time you reach the bottom of the bag, because by that time, the fats in the food may be quite rancid – and dogs’ noses are far more sensitive to the odor of rancid fats than our noses are. Veterinarians have a phrase for what happens when dogs are not fussy and eat rancid food, suffering digestive upset after meals: ‘bottom of the bag syndrome.'”

[gsdmommy89]

Hi Sully: That was me. Halfway through the second bag of Earthborn Coastal he wasn’t so excited anymore. Then the third bag I bought I’ve had such a hard time getting him to eat it. Sometimes he won’t even touch it. For him at 4 cups a day it takes him about 1 month (maybe a few days earlier) to finish a bag. I always put it in a Vittles Vault as soon as I open the bag.

[Lablubber]

Hi Crew

I thought I would hear from somebody on my post before now… Maybe because I am a man and it appears like everyone on this thread are ladies?? Anyway I sure would appreciate you guys wisdom on my questions if you find the time to reply….

Lablubber

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber

Maybe nobody responded to your posts because we don’t all want to come across as negative. I couldn’t care less about your gender and frankly, found it insulting that you thought it would matter, in any way.

The food you are choosing to feed your dog is too high in calcium for a large breed dog and is not recommended, in spite of it’s name. That’s what this whole thread is about. Think about choosing a food from this list.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
The oils you are adding are fine.

I would consider your plans for vaccination to be overkill, by now either the pup should be immune or it has an immune system problem and no amount of vaccinating will fix that. The Lepto vaccine doesn’t cover all the different serovars out there and so is considered unreliable, but using it does come with risks, so if your vet recommends against it even though you have expressed concerns, I would listen to your vet. He sounds like he may actually be a good one rather than one that just wants more of your money.

I don’t care if you don’t want to feed raw or rotate your foods, that’s entirely up to you, but when people ask us what we think is best, we would be remiss if we didn’t tell them what we think is best and maybe even share why. To me, the arguments are compelling, but then, I’ve had plenty of dogs with GI issues and food intolerances.

BTW, none of your questions actually had anything to do with large breed nutrition, not that we stay on topic here, but that may also be why no one answered. It’s not their area of knowlege.

[kms]

PattyVaughn –

Thanks for the feedback! If Augie has consistently good stool for a month, I’m hoping that’s when I can start to get him on a better diet. The vet wanted me to go 10 weeks – she even suggested keeping him on RC for the rest of his life – which left me kinda speechless.

So now I’m trying to figure out what next. Elimination diet or Limited Ingredient food? If elimination diet, what do I add first? How much? and for how long? I’m assuming 1st thing to add should be a protein. Should it be one he never had – or can I start with chicken? (foods he had so far contained chicken, salmon, turkey, rabbit – but we’re not sure if any of those were truly a problem since he also had worms, bacteria and several doses of antibiotics). Would I give it just once (with 1 meal) and wait a few days to see what happens – or give it with every meal for several days and then see? He’s 50 lbs, 8 mo, male, intact, Weim.

Sharon –

Thank you for posting the info about the the shampoo – this is the first time I heard that. I used Allergroom by Virbac for many years on our Lab (who we lost to cancer @ 9 yo) and have been using it on our Weim pup also. So, needless to say, we’re now looking for another shampoo. Maybe Mercola Organic? Pricey, but I trust their products.

Thanks so much to everyone. This site has helped me be a much better mom. Hoping to eventually do a rotation diet and maybe even feed raw down the road. Although, the Internal Medicine specialist who diagnosed Augie with IBD said that she doesn’t think a “rotation diet” is going to be possible. Hope that’s not true.

[kms]

Lablubber –

If you want to make sure that your pup has developed the proper immunity, look into getting a titer test run instead of giving another set of vaccines. And then get a titer run each year instead of re-vaccinating. Eventually, you will need to re-vaccinate – but at least you didn’t do it until you had to.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by kms.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by kms.

[BernerdAd]

Need Advice on solving a loose stool, sometimes Diarrehria problem that is NOT being caused by intestinal infection.

My dog is 20week old Bernese Mountain Dog – About 3 weeks ago he an attach of diarrheria – Up to this time he had been regular like clockwork and normal stools since he was 8wks old. He is being feed Blue Mountain Freedom (Grain Free Chicken ALS)

So I took him to the vet who put him on metronidazole 250mg 2x a day and a probiotic supplement. his stool sample came up negative. For food we switched to rice and boiled chicken breast –. Diarrhea cleared up but he still had loose stools – Vet then prescribed IAMs intestinal pro puppy version PLUS another round of metronidazole and probiotics — For things to get somewhat normal (stools normally shaped but like sausage) I have to fed 2/3 Iams and 1/3 Blue Mt Freedom. Now every time I start moving to 1/2 or 1/3 Iams and 2/3 Blue Mt – he stool gets softer.

Now I am thinking I need to try changing out his dog food and want to switch to Canine Caviar Open Sky — I wrote to them about their reccomendation to immediately transition to their food and not do it gradually — they wrote back saying ”

So I am looking for some help about how to problem solve this situation. I like our vet a lot but since the diarrhea is intermittent and he only has loose stools he feels it will just sort itself out.

[BernerdAd]

Sorry got my formatting wrong
Canine Caviar wrote back saying

“Different pre-biotics and pro-biotics can cause stomach upset when mixed. Each dog food manufacture uses different pre-biotics and pro-biotics. It is best to switch over without a transition period and reduces the risk of stomach upset. Most dogs transition without problems. If stomach upset or loose stool is present, pure pumpkin will calm the digestive upset. This can be used if it is a straight switch over as recommended or a gradual switch.”

[lmnordrum]

I am new to puppydom but I did learn quite a bit about my own dog’s digestive system when trying to find her things to chew on. We feed Wellness Core Puppy with great success and I also have some Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast which I give a handful for lunch. (Pup is a Giant Schnauzer, born 10/21, and I also use the Earthborn for training.) I decided that pig ears would be a convenient and inexpensive way for my dog to while away her time and not gnaw on furniture. Silly me…

While many puppy parents are focusing on the actual food when there’s a problem, what I learned was that pig ears are loaded with fat (and god knows what other stuff because they’ve been treated and salted). My pup had some loose stool towards the end of her BMs, and I mentioned it to the trainer in puppy class and she immediately pegged it as pig ears. Once I stopped the ears and substituted them with a good old fashioned bone and an antler, the loose stool went away immediately. The frequency of the BMs became more normal too, about two hours after a meal with appropriate consistency.

So if you’re feeding a good food and having strange digestive issues with the dog towards the end of a BM you might want to look at the treats/chewies/snacks. I use real meat (cooked) for puppy school and when we’re doing obedience, and regular kibble. No more pig ears here, and I doubt I’m going to try bully sticks for the dog either. I’m a label reader for my own food, and also read what’s in dog treats and think most of this stuff is junk. When I did the pig ears I did so at the recommendation of the boutique pet store, and these were not processed in China and were deemed “Natural”. Silly me, I thought I was just getting a baked pig ear, and it didn’t even occur to me that it would have a lot of fat or salt. Like our own diets, when we eat a lot of fat it comes out the other end, which is exactly what happened with my dog.

I have learned a lot from this group and this might help someone.

LN

[theBCnut]

Hi KMS
If the vet diet is eliminating all symptoms, stay on it for AT LEAST 6 weeks to allow histamines to clear out of the body, 10 weeks is better, unfortunately. Pick a limited ingredient food that you are interested in trying and copy it’s ingredient list. Stay on the vet food, but after the 6-10 weeks is up add one ingredient from the food you want to try back into his diet, example the food you want to move to has duck, sweet potato, peas… just add duck to the vet food, for 2 weeks, watching closely for a reaction. If you see one at any time, go back to just the vet diet again immediately. After 2 weeks, if you don’t see a reaction, start adding sweet potato to the diet for 2 weeks. Continue doing that until you have added the protein and starch sources from the food you want to move to and had no reaction. Then you should be able to safely use the new food, time to switch. Pick the next food and start adding it’s ingredients.

I would save the foods that are more likely to cause reactions until last, because every time your dog has a reaction, you have to put it on something you know it isn’t reacting to for 6-10 weeks before you can move on again.

If the vet food is not completely getting rid of all symptoms after 10 weeks, I would go ahead and move to a limited ingredient food that was very different. And try again to find a good starting place.

[theBCnut]

Hi BernerdAd
I haven’t heard of Blue Mountain, do you mean Blue Buffalo Freedom? If so, there have been many, many reports of dogs suffering from vomitting and diarrhea on this brand lately. I would give it up as a lost cause and try a different brand.

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Thank you once again for your reply on the vaccinations and yes i know this is a nutrition forum for large breed dogs and I have most of the tinme been talking about it buit it just came to mind while I was typing so I asked anyway, since all of your longtimers seem so well versed and have educated yourself in the finer points of truly raising your dog right… So thank you for your reply…. It is very much appreciated…

Then Patty, thank you also for your reply…. I know that written word is the poorest form of communication there is and you grossly misunderstood my intentions in my words because if you have read my other posts, I happen to think all of you are very informative and also very wise in your area of expertise. I actually switched off of the dog food my breeder had my pup on because of a post I think Hound Dog Mom made and I don’t know where in the world off of here that I got the idea to use Blue but it has made a world of difference in his coat, his stool conformity and he has yet to have the first issue with the Chicken and Rice Lg. Breed Puppy Food.

As far as the raw diet goes, I have no issue with anyone using it and believe me had I not seen first hand several issues myself with it, then I assure you for my pup, I would doing whatever it takes to have him on it and besides even the people I knew that had the issue may have not used the raw diet in the prop[er way or had the strict regime of ingredients like you guys do.

Believe me if I didn’t agree with anything you sauid or thought that you didn’t know what you were talking about….i sure would not have changed my whole way of thinking and I would still be using milk replacer in my puppy chow and facing hip or elbow issues down the road.

I came here to be educated by people like you and hound dog mom and all of the year of wisdom that is formed and madeup by in this forum. And then boom you hit me with another shot in your last reply and told me Blue had too much calcium as well and I just finished a 20 day transition over to it for my dog.

I swear someone on here told me it was one of the top 25 foods to feed a large breed puppy. So excuse me if I upset you by using the poorest form of communication there is because there was nothing intended wrongly for any of you. Because I am disciple of all of you and intend to remain so if you guys don’t shun me out for poor wording.

So with that said… Can I just plainly, country boy ask you what you would feed a labrador retriever pup that means the world to you if you don’t feel comfortable with going the raw way just yet?

One other thing I would also like to ask about supplimentation is with all of the stomach cancer issue that so many older dogs are facing… Has any of you ever added Tumeric or Curcumin to your dogs diet because I can tell you for a fact and even MD Anderson Hospital finally admitted that they have found that it actually kills cancer cells and then acts as an outright cancer fighting addition to your diet… My boss had Multiple Myeloma (Bone Cancer) and he was in stage 4 when they found it and then through nutritional changes and lots of prayer, he is a documented walking miracle. Needless to say his whole staff now takes tumeric/curcumin everyday… And my pup get a 1/2 capsule everyday as well, until I find out it is bad thing for him which I don’t think I will from what I have read. In fact I am going to write Texas A&M Vet. School to make sure that it will not and if not what dosage I could give him to be a correct amount for his system. I personally think it will make him cancer immune in his old age. I have had skin cancers on my arm dissolve and dissappear after just a few month of taking 3 capsules a day of it every day.

So I am sorry if I ruffled anyone up because I truly did not mean to do so because I respect and enjoy reading every single thing you guys write. I read it every day and every night religiously. I just thought it was kindly strange that everyone was replying to all the posts done after mine and not a thing toward mine at all… You know what assuming does but anything I aksed is asked geniunnely because I don’t know and really want someone more educated and wise to step up and help me out… This puppy means the world to me and so I only want the best for him even if I have to swallow a lot of stuff that I didn’t know I was doing wrong on.

So thanks for your reply and I look forward tolearning much more from all of you on this forum.

The Lablubber

So thank you for all of your help and wisdom and please continue what you are doing for all of us newbies to the real world of pet nutrition.

[BernerdAd]

Yes I misspoke it is of course Blue Buffalo — thanks for the heads up… I switched today to Canine Caviar Open Sky Grain Free.

I have question for anyone who has used pumpkin to manage loose stools — what is the quantity — I have a 42lbs — 21 week old BMD who is fed 3x per day. How would I use pumpkin in his diet effectively?

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber

My best suggestion for a food to feed would be to take the list with you to the stores around you and see what is available, where, for how much. Find a few that interest you and come back and read the reviews on them. If you still are interested pick up a few different foods and try them, one after another. Take notes on how your dog does on them, cross off any that he didn’t do well on, and go pick a few more to try. When you have a few different proteins from a few different brands, you will be feeding your dog the best you can without doing canned, dehydrated, freeze dried, fresh, or raw.

As for specific brands to start with, I prefer Nature’s Variety Instinct, Annamaet, By Nature, and Wellness.

[theBCnut]

Hi bernerdAd

I give a heaping teaspoon per 10 lbs of body weight divided into the daily food.

[theBCnut]

Oh and Lablubber, turmeric/curcumin is great for dogs too, yes, absolutely. It is an anti-imflammatory as well as cancer fighter. It works great for minor joint pain.

[Sharon Buchanan]

BernerdAd ~
Just wanted to ditto Patty’s recommendation on pumpkin. It isn’t something I care to eat, but I keep a single can in my pantry just in case. When I have to open it up, another can goes on the grocery list.

Lablubber ~
I can’t remember if I read anywhere the age of your Lab. There’s a number of articles that HDM posted at the very beginning of this topic that address the correct percentage of calcium for large breed puppies. The figures vary somewhat, I chose to take the advice of Dr. Baker and keep Mystery’s calcium nearer to .80 percent. (My Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever – healthy adult weight will be about 85 pounds.)

I hadn’t found this forum when I was researching food so I ended up creating my own chart. I looked at calcium percentage as well as ingredients. I wasn’t going to feed junk (by-products, un-named meat meals, synthetic supplements, controversial ingredients – canola oil for one), no matter what the calcium percentage was. But I also wasn’t going to feed what I thought was the best kibble (no preservatives, no grains), if the calcium was higher than I believed it should be. I would have like to have been feeding Mystery Orijen or Acana but their calcium max for LBP is 1.5%. Though they say they try to keep it to the minimum 1%, they’d be okay feeding my dog nearly twice what he should’ve gotten. In the end, I chose Innova LBP kibble.

A simple explanation of the problem with too much calcium is, that a LBP less than six months old does not have the ability to process excess calcium properly. Too much calcium gets deposited on the outside of the bones which then causes bone disease. Again, this is the simple explanation – try reading all the articles HDM posted, some of them are a little more technical, but you’ll learn a lot from them. And don’t expect your vet to be familiar with the LBP study or any of the reports from that study. My vet said he wasn’t sure if he’d read any of them when I first mentioned diet concerns – and tried to make me feel like I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.

Back to the age of your Lab. Once a puppy has reached six months of age, he is able to process calcium better but even afterward, calcium still needs to be lower than what a small or medium size puppy can handle. I moved Mystery to Orijen LBP kibble just last month when he was 9 months old. To address your concern regarding transitioning foods, when Mystery’s Innova got down to the last pound, I added a pound of Orjen to it. When that was gone a few days later, it was all Orijen.

As far as expense goes, I considered Innova to be an average priced kibble – compared to Purina, Iams, Science Diet, or any other junk food. Orijen, on the other hand is going to cost more but is worth it – as far as kibble goes. Innova did have a recall last year at the time that I was feeding it to Mystery. I was forced to switch him over to Wellness – the next lowest calcium percentage, but I cringed at every meal because chicken meal is their third ingredient rather than first, and they use Sodium Selenite instead of Selenium Yeast. It looks like Innova has changed their LBP recipe – I don’t know what I’d do now if my only option to feed was kibble to a LBP.

BTW, when Innova had their recall, I had no choice but to switch Mystery to Wellness – without any transition. And my cats have never needed transitioning as I’ve upgraded their food. Obviously, common sense must rule if you see a problem cropping up because of the change.

I have to agree with Patty on Blue. In addition to their minimum calcium percentage being too high, they have three grains in their top five ingredients, they add chicken FLAVOR (why do they need flavoring?), sodium selenite and caramel which is used to make you, the purchaser feel good about the color of their garbage, as if your dog thinks caramel colored food tastes better than beige food. I also don’t like seeing oil of rosemary so high on their ingredient list since we had a Golden that had seizures (if your dog doesn’t have seizures rosemary oil/extract might not be a problem).

In retrospect, I should have started feeding Mystery raw when we first brought him home at 10 weeks instead of waiting until now when he is 10 months old. You will absolutely learn much here at dogfoodadvisor and especially in the forums. I would also suggest, if you have to continue feeding kibble, go to truthaboutpetfood.com and sign up for her free newsletter. She’s also on Facebook if you prefer. I will say though, that I credit Susan Thixton (truthaboutpetfood), with my decision to pursue a raw diet. Of course, it was here at the forums that I received the most encouragement to switch.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[RescueDaneMom]

Lablubber-

I just wanted to say that I didn’t intentionally ignore your post. I tend not to respond unless I feel 100% sure in the advice I can offer. I personally didn’t go through the LBP phase. I adopted my Great Dane when he was 2. I feed a combination of raw and dehydrated but I know that not everyone is comfortable in feeding raw. I fed my boy kibble for 5 years before I started learning about raw.

I think that coconut oil, flax, and fish oil are great supplements to be adding right now. I don’t think it’s wise to give a ton of supplements to puppies right off the bat. Those 3 though are great. The only other thing you might want to consider is digestive enzymes and probiotics if you notice your pup needs a little extra digestive support. I give them to my dog because he’s older. You can also give a little bit of kefir. You can find it in the grocery store. It has 10 strains of probiotics. It’s much better than yogurt. You’d have to feed way more yogurt to get the same probiotic benefit as kefir. Also, I too switch off fish oil with krill oil. I would definitely continue to do that. They don’t need as much krill oil as fish oil because it is more bioavailable so you’ll want to watch your dosage. Here is info on krill oil from Dr. Becker: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

Here is an article from Dr. Becker on using Tumeric: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/11/12/turmeric.aspx She provides dosage at the bottom. “Small to medium-sized dogs can be given 250 milligrams twice a day, and large to giant breeds should get 500 milligrams two to three times a day.” Here is an article on coconut oil if you haven’t seen it already: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

If I were feeding kibble from HDM’s list, my top picks would be Earthborn Holistic and Annamaet. I have fed both to my dog and he did really well on them. I haven’t used it but I like the look of Dr. Tim’s. I also used The Honest Kitchen. I’ve been using for almost 6 years now. It’s a dehydrated food that you rehydrate with water before serving. It’s not raw because it has been heated during the dehydration process, though at a lot lower temperature than what kibble is exposed to when being extruded. You can use it as a topper if you want. The Thrive and Love varieties are complete and balanced with the correct Ca/P ratio for a LBP.

[Jazz Lover]

Sharon, we to have a 9mo (apr 2013) old lab & I’ve been struggling as to which food to switch to from (Euk LBP). He is now in recovery, post Dysplasia/FCP and this is what got me reading. Although, our initial recommend for Euk is from a reputable guide dog trainer, therefore I assumed I must use it! When I began to actually read the ingredients and noticed corn as one of the top, I felt terribly. As I don’t even eat corn.

Jazz is 75/80lbs. He was neutered at time of surgery. He is not a lean as he was pre-surgery (FCP & neuter). He has been on rest for the past 4wks since surgery – no excercise. Very difficult, as he’s a puppy!

You say you switched to Orijen LBP (puppy? correct?) What info do you have as to how long Mystery should stay on puppy, and at what age should one transition to adult (Orijen Adult).

I would prefer to have 2 variety’s of dry and supp w/ topper such as canned, dehydrated, Stella & Chewy’s & sardine’s a few times ea wk. Since 8mo I’ve been using Grizzly Salmon oil. Because he’s still under 2, I don’t feel comfortable adding all kinds of supps, etc. I’d like to identify a good turmeric… although, I’m confused as when to use toppers & fish oil, turmeric & the amount, given I would be combining w/ his regular food. (For example: If he has 4cups of dry, what amt do you reduce when you include a topper (dehydrated, sardines or canned)?

I feel like I’ve just about narrowed my food search to a few brands to further look into, however there’s still confusion as to what I should look for in a food for my Lg Breed from age 9mo after. If there are other food recommends then the LBP that I should venture to please lmk?

[Jazz Lover]

(note from my above post) I did reduce his food consumption from 5 cups to 4 cups after surgery. I feel like he’d go hungry w/ less, but that a better food would be beneficial.

[RescueDaneMom]

Jazz lover,

The general concensus is that it is safe to switch over to a food with higher calcium level at 10 months old. Orijen is a really good food. You could try the Orijen Adult when your pup is 10 months old. I also like Acana Regionals (Grain-free), Annamaet Grain-free, and Petcurean Go! Fit & Free Adult.

I give tumeric and omega 3s (fish or krill oil) daily. I buy my tumeric from Swanson’s Vitamins. You can get organic bulk tumeric by Starwest Naturals on their website. See my previous post to Lablubber for the article on Tumeric and dosage. You can give toppers with every meal. I would limit the fish to twice a week. You can also give eggs (cooked or raw) as a topper. You want to exchange the toppers with his food based on calories. Figure out how many calories the topper has and give him that much less food. Say the topper is 100 cal. Figure out how much food you need to remove based on the kcal/cup provided on the bag or website for your kibble. Ex- you would give 1/4 cup less food if your kibble is 400 kcal/cup. I hope I explained that well enough.

As far as what to look for in a food for your dog at 10 months and after is really up to you. I prefer to feed a high protein (30% or higher), grain-free (though not opposed to grain-inclusive if not fed all the time and high quality grains or pseudo-grains like oats, quinoa, or millet), and china-free ingredients (need to contact the manufacturer). I have fed my Great Dane Orijen, Acana, Annamaet, Earthborn Holistic, and Go! Fit & Free with no problems. Others that I would try if I still fed kibble (I feed raw and dehydrated now) are: Dr. Tim’s Kinesis grain-free, Victor GF Ultra Pro, and Timberwolf.

I hope that helps. 🙂

[kms]

Pattyvaughn –

During the 2 week test of each ingredient, do I add the ingredient to every meal or once per day? How much do I add each time? (just a tablesppon – or maybe follow the topper rule – keep it to 20% of his total daily calories?)

Also, when an ingredient passes the 2 week test, do I continue to give that ingredient as I move on to test the next ingredient? So, in your example, if the duck tested ok, would I stop duck and start adding sweet pot? or continue duck as I add sweet potatoes – keeping all the “extra” ingredients (both duck + sweet pot) to 20% or his total daily calories….

Again – thank you so very much!

[Jazz Lover]

Thank you RDM, sounds as if you like alot of the info from Dr. Karen Becker as well?

You mention eggs, and she also says the shells are beneficial. Does this mean to break an entire egg on the food (raw) w/ shell? (In general dairy for me is another, like corn, I stay away from. I thought it was interesting to see that one, either Fromm or Orijen included Wisconsin cheese in their food.)

I went over to thetruthaboutpetfood, but the sight doesn’t seem as friendly for the first time visitor. Looking for the reviews on foods & lists.

Thank you again from Jazzy & family!

[theBCnut]

I started adding just a small amount for one meal a day for the first 3 days, so if there was a strong reaction then I had time to notice and discontinue before feeding much of it. It took 3 days of a food with very little tomato pomace to find out that Micah can’t have that. It took almost a month to get him cleared up again

I also added a protein and a starch at the same time, knowing that if he did have a reaction to one, I would have to go back and test each thing individually. After testing a protein and a starch I stopped feeding them and moved on the the next protein and starch that I wanted to try or I continued that protein and changed starches after I had gone through the proteins that I wanted to go ahead and try. It’s up to you, but I wanted to try to keep his protein level up and carb level down due to past yeast issues.

You don’t need to make any of those 20% of the diet to tell if your dog will react to them, for that 5-10% is more than plenty, but after I saw no signs of a reaction for a week or so, I would really push it to test and feed even more than 20% for a couple days, kind of like an acid test for allergies.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by theBCnut.

[RescueDaneMom]

Jazz lover,

I do like Dr. Becker’s stuff. It makes sense to me and I like how she presents her information. The eggshell can be beneficial because it is a source of calcium. I do not give my dog the shell because I don’t buy organic eggs and I can’t be sure of what’s been sprayed on them. I just crack a raw egg into my Dane’s food bowl and mix it with his other stuff. He loves it. I will also cooks eggs over easy for him. He likes them both ways. The only dairy product I will give my dog is kefir because it’s 99% lactose free. He may get cheese if I need to give him pills. Other than that I don’t see a need for dairy. I don’t know why kibbles include cheese. Fromm has the cheese. Orijen has eggs. I’ll be honest- I’m not a fan of Fromm. Some people rave about it but my dog never liked it.

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