[AT]

Here is a link on THK website, which can help you estimate how long a box will last you depending on your dog’s size:
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/resources-and-programs/feeding-tips#dogfood
AT

[Connicorso]

Hello everyone! I need some help please! I’m sure this was already discussed at one point and I did try to search a bit but wasn’t finding exactly what I needed… So please forgive me:)
Anyways, we have a 14 week old Cane Corso- Italian Mastiff. She is obviously going to be a very big dog- her dad is 170 pounds! I want to switch her food. The breeder had her on Iams Large breed dog food. I think I want a food that is grain free. I am just so overwhelmed by all the information that is available and all of the brands. I am also confused by how much protein and calcium she should have and if she should be on adult food instead of puppy food? The brand Pinnacle was recommended to me. Has anyone used this brand or have any information about it for large breeds? Also, what about Wellness Core Dog Food? Please feel free to give me any advice/recommendations you may have. Thanks so much!

[dean ousterhout]

RescueDaneMom, PattyVaughn, AT…. 🙂 thanks for the insight.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Connicorso! Hound Dog Mom already did all the hard work contacting companies for the actual amount of calcium in their foods. Protein is not the issue, rather the calcium is. Here is the list that HDM made for large breed growth appropriate foods: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit
Regarding Puppy or Adult food, AAFCO only acknowledges to types of food: 1- growth and reproduction and 2- adult maintenance. See here: /frequently-asked-questions/aafco-nutrient-profiles/
I would make sure the food you feed meets the requirements for growth or is for “all life stages.”

Pinnacle has 3 varieties (though none grain-free) that made the cut to be on her list. It is a 4 star rated food. I used to feed my Dane the duck & potato variety and he really liked it and did well on it. Wellness Core Puppy is on HDM’s list too. It is a 5 star food. I haven’t personally used it but a lot of people seem to like it.

Remember that you don’t have to pick one food and feed it forever. The best thing you can do is rotate the food you feed your pup. Choose a few different brands and a few different protein sources. Just like with people, variety in the diet is important. You can even rotate grain-inclusive foods with grain-free foods. Also, just because someone suggests a food or it has good reviews doesn’t necessarily mean it will work for your pup. Every dog is different. If a food doesn’t seem to be working, scratch it off your list and move on to the next one.

My top 3 picks for grain-free foods would be: Earthborn Holistic (Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch), Annamaet (Salcha and Aqualuck), and Wellness Core Puppy. My top 3 picks for grain-inclusive would be: Dr. Tim’s Kinesis, Annamaet Ultra, and Nature’s Variety Prairie (Puppy or Large Breed Puppy).

Hope that helps! 🙂

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I really want to do it but feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Maybe I need a topic for feeding non-commercial raw to large breed puppies!) Also posting under Raw Feeding topic.

[theBCnut]

The quick answer is that yes you do still have to consider the calcium/phos ratio. Hound Dog Mom is the best one to answer your questions, but she is in school right now and I don’t know how crazy her school and work schedules are. I emailed her to let her know that you need help.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks again Patty. I will continue to research in the meantime.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sue’s Zoo –

Yes, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still important when feeding a homemade raw diet. When feeding a “grind” such as those sold by My Pet Carnivore there’s really no way of knowing the “exact” C:P ratio although it is assumed that it’s balanced. However, as we know, the concern with large breed puppies is not only that the C:P ratio is balanced but also that it remains relatively low. My suggestion (and what I did with my pups) would be to mix in about 25% green tripe with any grind that you feed (MPC does have a great grind called “Ground Beef Tripe Supermix” which is 50% green tripe/40% muscle meat, bone, organ/10% trachea and gullet which would be a good choice). Green tripe has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 but the levels of each mineral are relatively low (only about 0.3%) this way you can “lower” the overall ratio without the risk of throwing it off balance.

It’s also perfectly fine to start young pups on RMBs (it’s easiest to start small – chicken necks, etc.) but I would recommend feeding some muscle meat at each RMB meal. RMBs do have a balanced C:P ratio but it is very high (usually close to that upper 2:1 limit) so I would say feed about half as much muscle meat as you do RMB. So, for example, if you feed 8 oz. of chicken necks also feed 4 oz. of muscle meat.

As far as ordering – you’re going to be going through A LOT of meat with two large dogs. I currently have two female bloodhounds and we go through about 150 lbs. of meat per month. When I had my large male (who unfortunately passed last summer) we were going through closer to 250 lbs. per month. My suggestion – especially if you’re on a budget – would be to try and locate a wholesaler. I get my meat delivered right to my house by a wholesaler that sells to grocery stores and restaurants. They butcher all their own meat so they do have items like chicken backs, gizzard, hearts, organ meat, etc. and will deliver to kennels that order at least 300 lbs. at a time. You will likely have to place a large order if you go this route but if you invest in some freezers it’s worth it in the long run – I pay <$1 per pound for everything I get. The only meat I order outside of my wholesaler is green tripe and I get this from Hare Today – with the shipping it’s the most expensive thing my dogs get. You can often find good deals on used freezers on craig’s list or in the free trader.

Do you know how to create a balanced diet from scratch? There are some great books out there and also some pre-mixes if you’re not sure about what you’re doing.

[Sue’s Zoo]

First, thank you so much HDM for taking time to respond and Patty for helping out. I guess I did realize the c:p ratio was still important but was hoping it might be somewhat automatic when feeding raw. And from your response it seems like that is the case IF I get the balance correct between organ, muscle/tissue, and bone. And there are several ways to accomplish that–grinds, RMBs, Tripe mixes, etc. I guess at this point I just want the simplest way to get started, which ideally would be someone saying: feed this, then this, etc. 🙂 while I read and re-read all your info and additional recommended resources to educate myself and become more confident in creating my own meals. I did see some of your info under raw feeding giving your dogs various diets over a period of time. I’m going to look at those more closely because I think it’s what I need to kickstart the program. I just wasn’t sure if those contained all the necessary nutrition for large breed PUPPIES (as well as adult dogs). So thanks again for your response.

I think I may start with MPC as I look for less expensive routes for the future. Considering what I pay for just doing half Primal (chicken, beef, rabbit and venison) plus top end kibble/canned (rotating Wellness CORE Puppy/Earthborn Coastal Catch/Halo Surf n Turf, plus a daily can of FROMM Gold rotating proteins), with these pups, I can’t imagine it’s going to be much more…I hope. And I’m going to get a freezer (checking CL today)

And lastly, for now, you mentioned books. I have the Ancestral Diet book. I’ve noticed Dr. Becker’s is recommended in several places so I plan to get it. Are you familiar with Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald? Any others you could recommend to help me jump in quickly?

So happy to have found this site. I’m sure I’ll have many more questions over the next few months. Learning so much from you and some others. And I’m a skeptic so I don’t trust everything I read on the internet. But just by reading your posts it’s obvious you’ve done the research and know what you’re talking about.

[Lablubber]

I am a newby to all of this high tech dog food stuff but now that I am older and much wiser I read all I can about the well being of my pups…. I was the old way, dump milk or condensed milk into my puppy food to help them grow strong bones and prevent dysplasia then when they get older feed high pro to keep them muscled. but as I got older and wiser and had more time to read and started hearing more and more about canine cancer and the grain based feeds being considered as a culprit. I really started reading alot and looking for the best food available. I just bought a new puppy a yellow lab and only want the best for him but then just today I saw in an article on here that actually hinted or said that you can actually give a puppy too much calcium and I sure do not want to hurt this lab puppy in any way. but I thought I was doing what was best for him because of their size and higher than normal occurrance of dysplasia and so as always I have for the first year at least, added a scoop of milk replacer to my dog’s food bowl and along with it, I mixed it with warm water to make their food more appititizing and suppopsedly also helped build bones. So after reading these articles…. And also pleading stupidity with all of you for only wanting what is best for my dogs…. Is what I have been doing a bad thing for my dogs? Especially if it does not cause loose or runny stools? Because after reading articles on here, it seems like in these articles that they are saying that it actually causes more hip dysplasia and elbow displaslia? Is this correct? Because my vet has never caautioned against it and so believing the vet above my Holiday Inn Express Education in Veternarian Science, I sure would appreciate a good answer and explaination as to why, the extra calcium he gets by the milk replacer he gets in his food causes and even worst chance of dysplasia because I sure don’t want to hurt my puppy for anything? So if anyone can cite me or send me any articles on this or can tell me where to look. I would like to know. Also if anyone can tell me why I should not use Blue Wildness Lg. Breed Puppy Food for him or Blue Lg. Breed Puppy Chicken and Brown Rice Formula? Sorry to sound so stupid but as I said I was Puppy Chow, Hi Pro man all my life and thought I was doing good.

[theBCnut]

Hi Sue, the recipe’s HDM posted are from when her youngest was still a pup, so they are for puppies.

Hi Lablubber, the reason for watching calcium is because too much causes the joints to form too fast, also if the long bones grow too fast they but strain on the muscles which can alter the gait and cause more problems. You should always strive for slow steady growth in large breed dogs. Bigger is not better. Read the first page of this thread and look at the links HDM supplied.

[Lablubber]

Thank you Patty…..Will do. You know the old way of thinking was always bigger is better and chubbier in babies as well as pups is always better too. Need to learn to not think that way anymore.

[theBCnut]

Especially while they are growing, they need to be kept thin! Yes, it is hard to break old habits and change old ways of thinking.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks again Patty!

One other question…does anyone know if HDM evaluated Bravo! Raw food? It’s not on her list (and it is a 5-star rated food) but I’m unsure if that’s because it didn’t meet criteria, wasn’t checked or weren’t responsive when questioned. Though I am planning to eventually DIY I’m looking for a reasonably priced alternative in the meantime.

Again, can’t thank everyone enough for the advice on this forum.

[Sue’s Zoo]

So here’s the first order I’m planning to put in on MPC. Any feedback before I purchase? Feeding a 90lb 7 month old and a 40 pound 3 month old. Hoping this lasts at least a month after adding some chicken backs and veggie mix, etc. Planning to start looking for less expensive local options for at least some products but going an easier, faster route to get started.

Box of Turkey Necks-30 LB.

Turkey Hearts-3 LB.

Chicken Hearts-2 LB.

Chicken Feet

Chicken Liver-1 LB.

Green Beef Tripe Strips/Chunks-5 LB.

Ground Beef Organ Mix-2 LB.

Beef Trachea

Ground Beef Trachea & Gullet-2 LB.

5 LB. Ground Whole YOUNG Beef

Ground Chicken without Giblets-2 LB.

All-Meat Ground Deer-10 LB.

Total: $419.75

Thanks.

[kms]

Hi all! Just wanted to post an update on Augie and really need advice again. My vet has done all he can do to get rid of the Campylobactor bacteria. First, he put Augie on Marbofloxcin – which I opposed after reading about adverse effects on large breed puppies. After 4 days with no change in stool, we switched to Clavamox. Did 1 round. The stool is the same (1st part is formed, 2nd part runny). So vet sent us to an Internal Medicine specialist. Specialist did exam and sent bloodwork to Texas A&M for a CBC panel, profile and GI Panel. All bloodwork normal – TLI and Folate were fine and no pancreatic inflammation. Specialist thinks this is likely Inflammatory Bowel Disease. She suggested doing a biopsy of the large and small intestine (either a Biopsy via surgery or Biopsy via Endoscope). I asked if we could try elimination or hypoallergenic diet to see if the IBD is due to diet and she said “since he’s not losing weight, I’d be ok with that – but wouldn’t know anything for couple months”. If we go that route, she recommends Royal Canin HP (hydrolyzed protein; hypoallergenic, soy based protein). I asked about treating IBD with RAW or at least with a more premium limited ingredient food and she had no experience/opinion there.

I worry about him being only 7 mo old and having to go through all this. Can pups really have true IBD this young? My gut is telling me to change the diet, but I could end up spending 2-3 more months on something that doesn’t pan out for him. What do you think? Has anyone ever fed Royal Canin HP for GI issues? It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the first ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Thanks for any advice or insight….

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Every vet I have been to with all my dogs recommends Royal Canin Feed for dogs. And I have to be straight up honest with you too…..

This whole dog food issue is driving me absolutely nuts but I study it like a beast and I read and read and read and this is what I have concluded in all that I have read, been advised to do, and from what I have seen first hand in all of….

The Raw diet, although I know that it can be really great and it does seem like the most natural thing to do for your dog. But this is also from my studies of it, know to be a fact……

First the whole reason you are reading this anyway because you like myself, want only the best for your dog and so you want to be absolutely sure your dog or pup is getting everything it needs and requires in it’s diet… And so yes….If you use absolute extreme caution in prep and storage and you get all of your ingredients from a for sure, organic farm and ranch. And if you want to be absolutely sure that your supplementation is correct that you are going to use. the only for sure way that you can do that is by having bloodwork ran on your dog and having a nutritional spectro analysis ran to know the correct amounts of each vitamin and nutrient is being met in his diet and then no one can argue that the Raw diet is a great way to go.

But… the big But word….. The downside to the Raw diet has been, that due to prep work and non organic ingredients being used and this has happen to people who are OCD about it…But it has led to some very serious bacteia infections in people’s dogs and has even caused death in dogs due to the bacteria present in raw food. This bacteria has caused dog’s intestines to actually sluff off the inner lining and pass blood so bad that if they made it through the IV treatment and antibiotics regime then they were fine or otherwise dwindled down and they died.

So the downfall to raw is obviously, the chance you take in that happing, the expense of the spectro analysis, not to mention food cost involved…

Then the super high tech foods that everyone reccomends… The stuff like Blue, Innova, Dr. whatever and all that list on here… They all have high cost, but at least because they were processed in a high temp. situation…The biggest majority of all bacteria has been removed from it. So that is not a worry…. But then you read and know people who have fed that feed and some dogs have bleeding problems associated with it because of the high protien involved in it… Or whatever causes it….. It is not a rarity either….

Then a big push by folks for this food is they say that is like the food that animals in the wild eat and so let me say this as a country boy to as well as being an avid predator hunter, I have never in my life, seen wolves nor coyotes…..Ever eating carrots, blueberries, potatoes, kelp, etc. So in reality then….What is a person to think???? Not like a wild animals diet at all….

Then you come to the more old tried and true….The per say….Puppy Chows and High Pros and the Iams and Eukanubas etc. and yet more and more people are having their precious dogs come down with all different kinds of cancers and tumors. And for me being an avid reader of medical stuff in humans and from all I have read about Monsanto and the genetically mutated corn and the serious ill effects and cancer causing issues they have had in humans because of it….Then it also makes me extremely leery of any pet product containing any corn or corn by product….But yet, even myself I had to learn from folks on here of the ill effects of non-regulated calcium uptake in puppies, especially large breeds and yet I have never raised a lab pup that I didn’t put milk replacer or powdered milk in their food when I feed them…

So needless to say…..It is a very scary world out there for all of us as pet owners…. But one thing I have learned about some vets is…. They like doctors will treat a dog, until you say this is enough and I have been there some times before myself. So one thing I have learned and also saved many a dog with even those who had been left to die of parvo is if you are truly serious about your dog as much as most of us are on here. I will share my country boy diet that has saved quite a few dogs, exhibiting the very same symptoms your dogs is showing…

Go to a local rancher/farmer who raises ducks or chickens near you and and one who lets them fend for them selves for feed and buy them. Then butcher the ducks and boil them down to pieces and I mean everything….the livers and gizzrds and hearts and then add cooked organic brown rice or even quinoa and feed your dog exclusively on that for at least several weeks or even a month after all signs of bleeding ceases to exist in his stool…. As well as, only allow him or her to drink only alkaline water. If you have to buy it….I know Fiji water is akaline but it is also fairly expensive.

Then I would also add 3 capsules of tumeric or curcumin which is the same thing, to his food daily everday and continue that from there on cutting back to one to two capsules a day after he is healed. You can get this at any health food store or pharmacy…

If your dog were showing any signs of weight loss or delapidation in any ways whatsoever…. As I did in the ones that had parvo, I would also recommend adding acidophilus to his food as well as Goat colostrum and I can tell you, your dog’s bleeding should stop within a 4 to 5 days and he will be well on his way to recovery although I would recommend keeping him on the chicken and brown rice regime for at least a month and then begin to transition over to what ever food you want him to be on from then on, always watching closely for any recurrance of bllod in the stool.

Myself I would use the Goat Colostrum and Acidophilus anyway if money permitted regardless of weight loss or not…. But anyway if you couldand if you really wanted to recharge his system as well…. I would keep him on the acidophilus, tumeric and Goat colostrum for at least several months afterwards and then I would also start adding high flora yogurt to his feed when the bleeding stops…

I am not an expert by any means, but I am just a country boy who loves animals and refuses to watch any animal die if I can stop it. I will be honest…. I have lost faith in the medical field when it comes to humans and am quickly losing for the veterinarian field as well due to drug manufacturers and feed manufacturers getting in some of their pockets….

Yiour are well blessed if you have a vet who is in it for all of the right reasons… Very few and very far between… The love of money is the root of all evil and yes it has creeped down into the Vet world as well.

[lmnordrum]

Thank you Lablubber for your very informative post. I only have a puppy, Giant Schnauzer, on Wellness Core Puppy and she is doing well and no health problems and I’m glad I found this list so I can start her off ‘right’. I discussed raw with my vet (old country vet w/40 yrs exp, does large animals and small) and his concern is just what you say: salmonella and other bacterias. The food issue drives me crazy too. Before this whole kibble industry, people just fed their dogs what they ate.

I sure hope that Augie gets better though. Its like having a kid: you want to do the right thing and when it doesn’t work its just devastating.

[Jazz Lover]

New to the forum!

I’ve been researching to identify a better food for our 9mo old blk lab, Jazz. He’s been on Euk Large Breed Puppy. This mo he had elbow surgery for Dysplasia FCP (& neuter 🙁 ). We were so upset. After seeing your recommend food list, my question is shall I switch him to an “all life stages” or keep him on a large breed puppy food until… when? If all stages, would I look for Large Breed “All Stages?”

When will he be full grown (male lab)? He is probably 75lbs since surgery.

Since surgery I’ve begun using Grizzly Salmon Oil Omega 3. I’m learning to identify better treats & seeking other necessary supplements highly recommends for such a young pup. Open to suggestions!

Thank you HDM for your efforts in compiling the list!

[Jenmarlew]

Hi. I’m wondering the same thing. When is my puppy old enough that I don’t have to worry so much about calcium levels in his diet?

[Jenmarlew]

I might have answered my own question. The Lauten article HDM included in the first post says 6 months is when puppies can regulate calcium uptake. Can anyone confirm?

[theBCnut]

The slower maturing the longer I’d give it, so 8 to 10 months is probably a safer number.

[Jenmarlew]

Aha. Ok. Thanks!

[Tucker]

Hi All,

First post. Great site! Can’t believe I have had labs my entire life and never found it.

Apologies for the length… I wanted to get it all in 🙂

We just lost both of our labs last year in a one two punch within 2 months. Killed me 🙁 Floyd (my 11 1/2) Chocolate to prostrate cancer and KC (my girl 15 1/2) yellow to lack of mobility. That girl was bolted together more times and just kept on trucking. Pretty amazing… I was blessed. She may have cost me a fortune, but she was worth every penny and more. As close to a human as a dog can be 🙂 For anyone who has an older dog that is having trouble getting around I HIGHLY recommend trying acupuncture. I got two extra years of love out of her. 🙂 Now to the new…

A few months ago we started a new chapter in life and brought Tucker home. (I would put up a pic but I can’t figure out how to do it.. lol. Gorgeous White Male Lab. Great breeder, all of her dogs looked so healthy, great referrals. Then the unthinkable happened. We brought him home a few days before 8 weeks and on day two we were all on the bed ( I know… don’t even say it. There is a crate on there for when we sleep… Still want him on Daddy’s bed) I was at the top and my fiancé was at the bottom.. Tucker in the middle and he did a scoot and rolled of the bed… and began limping 🙁 I almost died. You all can only imagine! He favored his should for a few minutes and he was fine. Then two weeks later my finance was holding him, put him down and he favored for a minute and was fine. I was thinking maybe a bone bruise. Two weeks later it happened again!!! That was it… x-ray time. Our regular vet said there was a slight deformity in the round of the shoulder bone where it goes in the socket but it would it probably just go away and to keep him calm for a month or so. That doesn’t work for me. I’ve paid the price for listening to first opinions in the past and not investigating issues. I brought him to my Ortho who bolted my girl back together so many times and he gave me the real scoop…

OCD… I knew when he said come in my office it wasn’t a bone bruise. I’ve taken that walk before. 🙁 He’s old school and said monitor and if it gets bad we will fix it. He wasn’t showing signs of distress on manipulation. He said if it’s bad they yelp. I’ve researched everywhere and my brain feels like it is full of Bingo Balls right now.

Our breeder said she has never had a dog with OCD. I know nutrition and heredity are two factors, but in this case I have to believe that this is trauma related OCD and not from the others. With that in mind, I know slow growth, low calcium. Some say no carbs so grain free, others say not too much protein is bad which is what you get with grain free…

Bingo Balls :-/

Our breeder did not believe in puppy food and fed Kirkland Signature Salmon and Sweet Potato. I have a problem with Costco dog food. We got home and the vet said Iams puppy large breed was good. I think that is worse. Can’t believe I went there… I just wanted to do it all right. So here we are now.

I need the best dry food I can get considering his OCD condition in his left shoulder. I really don’t care what I spend on my bag of kibble. I just want to fix my puppy!!!

We got a harness instead of a collar so there is no unnecessary tugging, There are ramps everywhere so there is minimal impact on up a downs, and we try to control him as much as anyone could control a 4 month old lab. When the zoomies come you just have to go with the flow…lol.

Now I need to know the best dry kibble to feed him. Whatever will help as much as possible for this to heal and his bones to grow big and strong. 🙂

Side note … The vet did start him on a glucosamine pill that seems good. And then we talked to the lady at the holistic dog food store who says it may be bad because he is young and you don’t want it to take the place of his own body making it… seriously!!! like I didn’t have enough to worry about with the kibble….

Any help would be sooo greatly appreciated. I love my dogs more than people! I can’t change what happened and I have accepted that it was an accident, though preventable 🙁 Now I need to do everything I can to put things right!

Help me Doggie Food Forum… your my only hope! 🙂

Thank you everyone for all of your posts. They have been very helpful. This place is fabulous!

[theBCnut]

First of all, did you read the first few pages of this thread? Did you check out the links? The idea that protein causes problems was bad science and ignorance, so don’t worry about that.
Here is Hound Dog Mom’s latest list of foods that have the appropriate amount of calcium for large breed dogs.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
You have to sign up to view it, but it’s very worthwhile. Take the list with you to the pet boutiques around where you live and see what is available. DO NOT marry any one food, rotate foods. Do a search on the review side on diet rotation to learn more.

Keep your puppy thin, not just not fat, but thin. Less weight is less stress on joints.

Find a joint supplement with hyaluronic acid in it. That’s what the body needs to make repairs to joints. And consider feeding him a raw turkey neck once or twice a week, they naturally have good stuff for joints in them, since them have a lot of cartilage in them.

If you have bare floors, consider using throw or area rugs at least until he is grown. They think slip and falls can be a big factor in joint damage for puppies. And finally, no stairs for as long as possible. When he has to do stairs, make sure he does them at a walk.

[Tucker]

Hi Patty,

Yes I did. I’m all on board with the no impact and rugs etc. We have all of that in place. And I have my bed surrounded in puppy fence so that will never happen again!! It’s a little crazy to change the sheets, but makes one hell of a five star crate 🙂

It’s the food. I’m still not sure of which. We have gone over the list.

I just wasn’t sure about grain free or not? There is a vet that we linked to from here that said cut out the carbs and grains. Both types of food are on the list here.

And do I shoot for the lowest calcium which I think was Dr Tim’s at .9 something. I know Wellness is readily available around me. Core Puppy is an option.

Considering he has problem and we are not trying to just avoid one I was wondering if that made a difference?

I realize there is no one answer though I would love that. 🙂

[theBCnut]

You don’t want to go too low on calcium either, that has it’s own set of worries, but any food on HDM’s list should be fine. Dr. Tim’s is a super food and if you ever have any questions just email them and Dr. Tim will answer your email. They are super helpful.

I guess in your situation, I would go grain free because grains are known to be inflammatory, which is not conducive to healing. But I’m not sure if it would really matter if your dog doesn’t have a problem with grains, I’d just do it out of an abundance of caution.

[Tucker]

Thank you Patty… Just when I thought I was good to go I run into the protein debate. 🙁

I went today and got a little bag of Wellness Puppy Core and NV LID Turnkey all on the list. Before I found you guys I had bought a bag of Great Life Chicken. I guess that is not grain free but shows lower protein.

Here is my sticking point. I have read all 59 pages 🙂 and now I am educated and confused as hell lol

My breeder of labs for 18 years was feeding Costco Salmon and Sweet Potato which is OK for puppies on the list but we have the Diamond Food recall issue. On her puppy packet she says, ” we don not fed puppy food because of the high protein in it. Pups and growing dogs do not need more than 24% protein in their diets. A large breed grows quickly and we want to make sure the joints keep up with the growth so no puppy food.”

You are in agreement with that part and the calcium levels are ok with that food. But the protein is low. Does she just not know. She said 18 years and she never has a problem with her dogs on that food. Who is right? The vet put me on Iams puppy lb and he started itching, so she put him on antibiotics and med shampoo. I feel like an idiot for giving him the pills so young but I listened to the dr. Everyone has a different opinion. I just want to do what is best. The amount of research that has been here is incredible and I am so appreciative to everyone that has taken the time to share their knowledge. Alas I feel I find myself in the same place as many newbies… over informed and over confused!

Do I look for a high end food that had the right calcium but lower protein as she says to cover both bases. The Great Life Chicken I have here and was going to start him on before I found you guys is 22%. Not grain free though. I guess the grains keep the protein levels down?

2 of the lower protein on the list get close to what she says and covers my calcium.

Earthborn Meadow Feast is 26%…
Dr Tims Kenesis is 26%

so if I understand… we adjust the quantity to compensate for the extra protein calories with a high protein food so he doesn’t grow to fast? That is what she is worried about. he is a lab and loves his food… wouldn’t it be better to give him a food with less protein and a larger quantity so he can chow down and feel full? or does it not work that way? Am I just filling the belly with wasted or unbalanced calories?

Tucker is a hoover… if I free fed him he would look like a basketball. I don’t think he would stop eating… 🙂

Right now he is 4 months and 32 pounds at last check (yellow lab male) Every vet that has looked at him says he is going to be a big boy! He is not rolly polly now. I think he looks good in the waste and ribs.

Just when I thought I had it… and I am stuck in the mud again. but now with 3 different bags of kibble at home that I am apprehensive to use 🙁

I hope I am not the only person that is this confused. You are all so patient with everyone. Sorry if I am driving you crazy.

But thank you soooo much for the help!!!!

[Tucker]

Hello Again,

Does anyone know why the Great Life grain inclusive foods aren’t on the list? Is it because of the protein level? I’ve heard they are excellent. grain free is 5 star on the list

Aside from that is the calcium on target?

Still searching 🙁

[RescueDaneMom]

There are 3 reasons why the grain-inclusive Great Life didn’t make the list:
1- the calcium was too high.
2- the food is not 4 stars or above.
3- they didn’t respond to HDM’s inquiry about their actual calcium levels.

I’m not sure which one it was, but HDM said that if I food wasn’t on the list then it was because of one of the above reasons.

What are you still searching for? I would not be afraid to use the Wellness Core or NVI Turkey. I have to concur with Patty. The issue with growing large breed puppies is not protein. They need to grow slow and not have too much calcium. HDM has figured out the calcium for us with her list. As for slow growth, they can grow slow on high protein/high calorie foods but you can NOT overfeed them. If they get too many calories and grow too fast then you will run into problems. Regarding how much to feed- yes, you would feed less of a high protein/grain-free food because it has more calories. Those foods tend to be more calorically dense because they have more meat which means more fat and fat contains double the amount of calories as protein. If you fed a grain-inclusive the calories would probably be lower because there are more carbs (from the grains) and less fat. So you could feed more of a grain-inclusive. It depends on the dog. I had a rottie (passed last month from cancer) that acted hungry all the time no matter what food he was eating, grain-free or grain-inclusive. I suspect labs can be the same way. If I were you, I would start feeding the Wellness or NVI Turkey and see how he does on them. If he does well then great! Add those to a rotation list. Then you can try a grain-inclusive like Dr. Tim’s Kinesis and see how he does. If he does well on both types of food then I see no real reason to why he can’t eat grain-inclusive. You can alternate between grain-free and grain-inclusive foods.

That’s my 2 cents. I hope it helps alleviate some of the confusion. Here is a great article about large breed puppy growth by Dr. Karen Becker: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/04/09/slow-growth-diets-for-giant-breed-puppy.aspx I feel like this is a great summary of what this whole thread is about and it explains it much better than I can.

[Rambunctious]

I read it all. My eye balls hurts!! So much wonderful information and so many people who have contributed!! Thank you!!

We’re bringing home a standard labradoodle next month. At the moment ( from what I’ve gathered!) we’re going to go w/ dr. Tim’s kinesis all stages – with some sort of topper (maybe 4health?) if someone has a suggestion for a topper- I’d love it! We’ll rotate off of life’s abundance ..

And for the ratios- it’s just feeding what is recommended in bag from Dr.Tim…then scaling back appropriately for the topper- or does that matter if the topper just ends up being extra?

[Jazz Lover]

Hi Patti

Still a few Qs. It’s not clear if I should stay on a lg breed puppy (9mo male lab – who had recent surgery for FCP)? Or move to All Stages (& how can all stages be for lg breed? Confusing!) I’m not seeing any lg breed adult on the list.
Unfortunately Jazz was neutered at time of surgery. How much less do I give? It’s my understanding you need to give less if dog was neutered do to slower metabolism from neutering.
I’ve heard conflicting info on suppliments. Jazz is now taking Grizzly Salmon oil w/ meals. But for any other supps, I’ve heard you want to wait until they have fully developed before giving other supps b/c you don’t want to disturb what is developing naturally.
Thank you!

[Jazz Lover]

Hi RDM

Still a few Qs. It’s not clear if I should stay on a lg breed puppy (9mo male lab – who had recent surgery for FCP)? Or move to All Stages (& how can all stages be ok for lg breed? Confusing!) I’m not seeing any lg breed adult food on the list.
Unfortunately Jazz was neutered at time of surgery. How much less do I give? It’s my understanding you need to give less if dog was neutered do to slower metabolism from neutering.
I’ve heard conflicting info on supplements. Jazz is now taking Grizzly Salmon oil w/ meals. Concerning other supps, I’ve read you want to wait until they have fully developed before giving other supps b/c you don’t want to disturb what is developing naturally.
BTW, I love all info I’ve seen from Dr Becker.

[RescueDaneMom]

Jazz Lover,

The general consensus is that puppies can start regulating calcium uptake around 8-10 months old. To play is really safe you could wait until 1 year.

Read this for an understanding of what “all life stages” means: /frequently-asked-questions/aafco-nutrient-profiles/

Essentially you can feed an “all life stages” food to a puppy because it is approved for growth and reproduction as well as adult maintenance. A lot of the labels on foods (ie large breed puppy, large breed adult, senior, etc) is just marketing. If pet food companies really knew what they were doing in formulating dog foods, there would be a lot more “large breed puppy” foods on the list. If I were you, I would not get caught up on the label. You don’t have to feed a food specifically for a large breed puppy or large breed adult. You need to make sure it is approved by AAFCO for growth and reproduction (aka puppy food) or all life stages.

I had to google FCP surgery. This was done to correct elbow dysplasia? As far as supplements go, I have heard the same. You don’t want to give supplements until they are done growing. I think you’d be safe starting them at 1 year. Does your vet have an opinion on this? I think you are ok with giving the salmon oil as long as you account for the calories that it adds. How much you feed will depend on the body condition of your dog. It is hard to say how much his metabolism will slow down. I would just watch his form and if he looks like he’s getting chunky, cut back on the food. If he starts to look too skinny, increase his food. Refer to the body condition chart in the Dr. Becker article I posted previously. I keep my dog lean because he is older and has arthritis. It is much easier on the joints.

Bottom line- if I were you I would continue to feed a food on HDM’s list and hold off on additional supplements until 1 year or per your vet’s instructions. I hope that is helpful to you.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Rambunctious,

One of my favorite toppers is The Honest Kitchen. I didn’t read your other posts, so I apologize if you mentioned you had special needs, but THK’s Thrive has appropriate Calcium for large breed puppies. It’s very fast and easy to put a couple of spoonfuls on top of his kibble and soak it all in water. Just stir, let it sit for about five minutes and its ready. THK is a dehydrated, less processed food, that just needs to be reconstituted with water. It’s a great product from a great company.

[theBCnut]

Hi Tucker
The reason ypou breeder didn’t have problems with the food for all those years is because the calcium level was OK, not because of the protein level. It is hard for people to give up their long held beliefs even when they have been proven wrong. I wouldn’t feed Great Life. They have had problems in the past that should have resulted in a recall, but it was more important to them to be able to say that they haven’t had any recalls than the safety of our animals, so they did a “product withdrawal” instaed of a recall. It got next to no attention since it wasn’t a recall, so people didn’t know that they were potentially feeding their dogs bad food.

[theBCnut]

Hi Rambunctious
I think we all felt the same way once. Soon all that info will start sorting itself in your head. Definitely take into account the amount of topper. The worst thing you can do for a large breed dog is to let them be a fat puppy. It puts too much stress on the joints.

[theBCnut]

Hi Jazz Lover
You don’t have to worry about staying on a large breed appropriate food after Jazz is done growing. That’s just a gimmick that somebody thought up. All Life Stages foods are great for any age. My almost 12 yr old is doing great on ALS foods, way better than she was doing when I had her on an adult food.

[gsdmommy89]

Hi everyone. I’m not new to this forum, but I do need some advice. I have a 7 month old GSD and I’ve only fed him from HDM’s list. I first started him on Fromm Large Breed Puppy from the age of 2 months til about 4.5 months. He ate all of it from his bowl but had very loose stools even with pumpkin mixed in and bad gas. I then switched him to Nature’s Variety LID Turkey thinking maybe since it was a bland ingredient list his stomach and stools would settle but he didn’t even touch it. Too bland I guess. I went back and exchanged it for the Nature’s Variety Large Breed Puppy which he ate willingly but when I went to pour the bag into my Vittles Vault I noticed it was expired so I went and took it back to get a new bag but was told that food doesn’t really move so the only bag on the shelf was expired, too. Bummer. I settled for NutriSource Large Breed Puppy and the first few bowls he ate ok, but then began turning his nose up to it. I tried a different approach and went for the Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch. Success! He ate it willingly and his stools firmed up nicely. The first bag went by and he ate it all up with no problem. Half way through the second bag I noticed he wasn’t going for it as excitedly as he used to. I bought a third bag anyway. Now I’m struggling to get him to eat it. I have to mix it with gravy for him to even touch it. My boyfriend has his brother and he feeds him Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast and I grabbed two cups from his to try with my dog. I gave it to him replacing his regular morning meal without gravy and although he ate it, it wasn’t as happily as I’d hoped for. I’m at a loss now. Has anyone had this problem? What solution did you find? I’m sorry I’ve made this long. I don’t want to keep mixing gravy and wouldn’t like to introduce wet. Don’t want to make him pickier than what he already seems to be. I was looking at Annamaet but I live in Los Angeles and no retailers carry it here. I’m not a fan of ordering online, I’d much prefer to drive and get my food. I’m also hesitating on switching back to grain inclusive as his poop is firm on grain free. My head just doesn’t function right at this point. Any pointers? I don’t even know if I’m asking this question in the right place

[RescueDaneMom]

GSDmommy, is his brother picky too? From what you’ve said, it sounds to me like he is just a picky eater. Our pit bull is like that. It was a lot of trial and error to see what he liked. I’d buy smaller bags and rotate frequently. It sounds like he may like fish and chicken foods so far. You are going to be pretty limited if you don’t want to order online. Have you tried Wellness Core Puppy yet? That should be available locally.

My Dane used to get bored when he was eating kibble and I had to change his food after every bag. He would only eat poultry based foods (chicken, turkey, duck…). It was a pain in the butt. I added canned food and The Honest Kitchen as toppers so he would get other protein sources mixed in. I thought he was pretty picky. About 4 months ago I switched him completely over to The Honest Kitchen and raw. He is not picky anymore. He eats everything now: beef, pork, lamb, chicken, duck, goose, salmon, whitefish. So far I have not found anything he won’t eat except for THK Thrive (I don’t think he likes the quinoa in it).

I’m sure that was not too terribly helpful for you but that is my experience with 2 “picky” dogs. I hope you figure it out. Good luck 🙂

[Rambunctious]

Betsy,
Hi! Thanks for the honest kitchen recommendation! I looked it up- I’ll be honest- my husband flipped when I told him how much Dr. Tim’s was going to be- no way will be he okay with adding THK topper. I feel like Dr. Tim’s is fairly reasonable for what it is- I’ll order Dr. Tim’s online and rotate w/Fromms (gold puppy I think) which I can get locally.
Is there a reasonablely priced topper that maybe a big box store would carry that I can add a few scoops to? From what I’ve read- toppers are really a good think to add…moistens the kibble, extra protein, etc. so I don’t wanna skip it.
I’d love any feedback! I’ve got Walmart, tractor supply, Meijer, gladeiux and I can make a pet smart too ..

[InkedMarie]

Rambunctious: keep in mind that a 10 pound box of The Honest Kitchen makes 40-44 cups of food. As a topper, a small box would last a good long time.

I’d look into ordering food online. I believe most of the regulars here do, for me, the food is much cheaper and free shipping! Chewy.com Wag.com PetFlow.com and PetFoodDirect.com (not always free shipping) are good places to order from.

[gsdmommy89]

Hi Rescue Dane Mom and anyone else

I haven’t tried Wellness on him. Personally for me (and this is my experience as I’ve worked in a Mom and Pops pet food store) big breed dogs don’t switch well to Wellness if not started very young. I wanted to try the Fromm Grain Free, but it is pricey in my opinion. His brother is not picky at all. He gets extremely excited when it’s feeding time no matter what he’s getting. As a matter of fact, his brother contracted Parvo at the beginning of October last year. After he recovered from it, that’s how he’s been with food. Overly excited. But my dog used to be like that, especially when he was a young puppy on Fromm. I’m not completely ruling out online ordering, but I feel better when I can physically touch the bag and read it before buying it. I feel limited also since there are so many 5 and 4 star foods that my local retailer carries but aren’t on HDM’s list. I figured I should just suck it up these 3 weeks that I still have left for him to turn 8 months so I can really expand into different foods like Merrick and other flavors of Nature’s Variety.

[dogmom]

I know that a number of you have said you don’t like the Acana and Origin brands because they have a touch too much calcium, but my large dogs have done really well on it. My youngest German Shepherd is at 85 lbs at 8 months old, and he’s looking and acting pretty perfect. My older Shepherds (range from 110 to 130 lbs) are doing great on it too. No upset stomachs, good stools, good health, and they LOVE this food. No Pano problems at all, and no Hip Displasia in the breeding lines at all, so I don’t expect that. We moved them from the breeder food to Acana very gradually, and it was smooth as it can be.

[dogmom]

Just a note on the Acana – I did move my 8-month old GSD from Origin Large Breed Puppy to Acana when he was 6 months old, because he was growing too fast, and the vet suggested that he be put on adult food to slow him down some. That’s worked great for us – again, sloooow switch between the foods – took a couple of weeks.

[Parr]

GSDMommy89,

I also have a GSD, she is just over a year old. I also feed her Earthborne, and use Meadowfeast. She really likes that one, but towards the end of the bag, she isn’t as excited about it as she is at the beginning. I do rotate her foods and use toppers for some meals and meaty bones a few times a week. The one brand of dry food she seems to always like is, Canine Caviar, Open Sky, or Wilderness. She will follow me in when I bring in the new bag and sniffs the bag like crazy and bugs me until I open it, then she sticks her head in and tries to eat from the bag. It is much more expensive and you have to feed less of it since it is higher calories, I think, but she loves it. So you might try that brand in your rotation. I hope this helps. I’ve gotten so much help from everyone here in the past, I hope this little bit of info helps you as well. Take care.

[gsdmommy89]

When you say toppers, do you mean wet food? I’ve thought about wet again and again, but I just really don’t want to get him used to wet and then when I want to give him something by itself he’ll turn his nose up to it completely if it isn’t mixed. The only food I can honestly say I never had a problem with at all is the Fromm Large Breed Puppy. I stopped giving it to him because I felt it was too rich for his tummy and his stools were always loose. Not runny, just loose. I guess I’ll buy a few small bags of what I have available here at my local retailer and do trial and error. He didn’t seem to mind the Meadow Feast very much, so I guess I’ll try that first. If anyone has anymore advice or opinions, please let me know! Thank you

[Rambunctious]

I’m confused. No surprise!

I thought it was optimal to feed some of a can on top of kibble to aid in digestion or something. (For those who are feeding commercial) As much as I like THK- it’s not an option for us to feed that right now. We’re getting a labradoodle that we expect to hit about 55lbs in a bit over a month. I understand that it’s optimal to also rotate food. So, we were thinking of rotating dr.Tim’s kinesis (order online) and fromm’s gold puppy which we can get locally. I thought we should add a bit of wet food to each meal to moisten and provide a bit extra protein. I’m a little lost on where to find a decently priced wet. And if my plan sounds decent? 55lbs is on edge of large breed and I don’t want to mess her up if I should be looking else where.
I appreciate all the feedback!

[Parr]

Yes sometimes my toppers are canned food, or meat, or from the Honest Kitchen line, just depends. I don’t use them for every meal. But when I said she loves the Canine Caviar I meant she eats it right up without any toppers. Her stools on Canine Caviar are always great. They are harder on Meadowfeast. I know it is always tricky to find the food that works. Good Luck to you.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Parr,

Mine do amazingly well on Canine Caviar, too!

And, Hi Rambunctious,

I did some math…

There are four dry cups per pound of The Honest Kitchen. There are 16 tablespoons (or 48 teaspoons) in one dry cup. I use approximately two tablespoons of dry THK as a topper for my 77 pound Golden Retriever’s kibble. I paid $48.86 for a 10 pound box on THK Zeal on Amazon.com. $48.86 divided by 10 pounds is $4.89 per pound. If there are 16 tablespoons in a pound then each tablespoon costs .31 cents. So, if used as a topper twice daily, THK costs me .64 cents per day and the 10 pound box would last me 80 days.

So, I just did this calculation with Zeal, but you could easily plug the numbers into other THK varieties with the amounts that you would use (which could easily be less than two tablespoons). When you look at it this way, I think it sounds a lot better than just the outright price of the initial investment for such a high quality product!

[Author]

Posts