[Cyndi]

Hi guys, I need some help. I believe Bailey has all of a sudden developed an intolerance to something she’s eating because she has been itching and shedding BAD for the past few months and now I’m noticing bald patches on her sides. 🙁 An intolerance to some food is the only cause I can think of as to why, so I think I should start an elimination diet but I don’t know how. She eats all different kinds of things, how would I go about this? She’s been on raw for about a year and a half now and the only thing new that I’ve given her recently has been goat. I don’t think it’s that though, because I think her shedding and itching started before I started giving her the goat.

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Cyndi]

Here is everything she eats: AM: Ground Beef, Ground Beef Organs and Tripe mixed, with either See Spot Live Longer or Dr. Harvey’s Veg 2 Bowl, along with either an egg, or sardines and coconut oil, a garlic pill, veggie baby food. I use Fresh Pet occasionally and give her that for breakfast every once in a while. PM: I switch it up between Rabbit grind, a chicken back or leg quarter or a turkey neck along with liver, or gizzards or heart. That’s pretty much the staple of what I give her on a weekly basis.

I have been using Mercola’s flea & tick spray & Sentry Natural Defense flea and tick topical.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Cyndi.

[DogFoodie]

Your topical pest control sounds good. Any other potential environmental allergies? Yard applications (natural, like neem oil or otherwise)? Household products; ie: carpet or floor cleaners, detergents, air fresheners? Did you get her a new bed…

You know, I was going to use the Mercola Natural Defense that you’re using, but couldn’t. I sent it back, unopened. I never smelled it. I wonder if it could be that the essential oils in that are too stimulating. ??

Her diet sounds great. Did you add any of the pre-mixes or supplements, like the garlic, shortly before the itching began?

The only health issue that comes to mind is thyroid. Is that a possibility?

[crazy4cats]

I was thinking thyroid also. My furry nephew lost a lot of hair before going on thyroid meds. Good luck!

[Cyndi]

Thanks for the reply Betsy & C4C. Betsy, why did you send the Mercola stuff back? I wondered if maybe she could be allergic to something in that, but I used it last year too and Bailey was fine. The only thing I started her on recently was the garlic pills, and she was itching and shedding real bad before I started those. The premixes and stuff I’ve been using since she’s been on raw, so I don’t think it’s any of those.

I never thought it could be health related. I think I might have to get her to the vet and have that checked. I did just have blood work done on her not too long ago (when I went to see that quack “vet”), would a thyroid issue have come up on bloodwork or is there a different way they check for that?

Thanks you guys!

[crazy4cats]

I really kind of doubt that the thyroid is the issue as you haven’t mentioned any lethargy or weight gain along with the hair loss. But it is one of the symptoms. Last year when my oldest cat had a senior blood panel test, it showed her thyroid levels off. Then they did another more specific test for the thyroid. I’m guessing it would have shown up on the test you already had, but not sure.
I’m sure you have already checked for fleas. Also, it is so itchy outside right now anyway. Everything is dry and there are so many bugs. Maybe it is a seasonal thing?
Oh, the worry these pets cause!

[DogFoodie]

Here, everything is so wet. The mosquitoes are terrible. Even though it hasn’t really rained within the past week, it’s like the ground feels saturated. Yuck. That’s why the first thing I thought of also was that it had to be something environmental.

A thyroid panel would be a separate test that wouldn’t have been part of the “normal bloodwork.” You didn’t mention any other symptoms and if she doesn’t have any of those that C4C mentioned with lethargy and weight gain being two biggies, I would be less likely to think thyroid.

I had planned to use the Mercola spray in conjunction with the Springtime Bug Off Garlic; but when I gave Sam the garlic, he reacted to it almost immediately. When I couldn’t use the BOG, that threw my whole plan out the window. I ended up with Sentinel. : (

[Cyndi]

No lethargy, but she has put on a bit of weight I’ve noticed so I’ve cut down on her feeding by a few ounces per meal. I check all the time for fleas, I go over her with a flea comb and when I bathe her I don’t see any at all. I was thinking too that it could be something outside. The weather here is nuts. Really hot and humid one day, the next day in the 60’s, tons of rain, but mostly just really humid.

I keep a log of everything she eats and I keep going over it looking for something that it could be. I hate to go spend a ton of money on a bunch of blood tests and have it be something silly like treats of something that aren’t agreeing with her.

Oh the worry these pets cause us is right, C4C! Lol!

[DogFoodie]

How does her skin look, Cyndi? Does it look irritated or are there little bumps? Have you bathed her or had her groomed and what kind of products do you use for that? Anything new there?

You didn’t mention that she was scratching and that was what appeared to be leading to the hair loss. Is that right? You said it was “shedding,” which made me think that she wasn’t scratching.

[Cyndi]

Betsy, I was thinking environmental too. She does like to lay in the grass, but she’s always done that. & she really hasn’t done that too much this year because of how hot and humid it usually is. She mostly goes out, does her business and comes right back in. & it seems we’ve gotten more than our share of rain the past couple months as well.

I guess, since she has put on some weight (I thought it was just weight she gained over the winter) maybe I better get her thyroid checked. I don’t want to miss something major while I’ve driving myself crazy going over her food intake.

You could have used the Mercola’s spray by itself. I really think it works and I do like the smell of it. Now you and I both have a big bottle of that Bug Off Garlic going to waste, lol! Bailey refused to eat it, now I just use garlic capsules.

[Cyndi]

Yes Betsy, she is itching and scratching. Mostly the belly area. She has a few almost bald spots on her lower sides, by her belly area. I haven’t noticed any bumps, but her skin is a bit red in areas she scratches alot. I just went over her real good again, and no fleas. Just to reiterate she is scratching AND shedding. The shedding is worse that I’ve ever seen.

I’ve been using the same shampoo that I’ve always used for her. It’s Earthbath Mediteranean (sp?) Magic. I also got, after the increased shedding and itching, Dr. Harvey’s Herbal Protection Shampoo.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Cyndi.

[Barbara O]

How much quality oil is the dog getting? Most dog foods have to limit the amount of fat they put in dog foods due to danger of rancidity. My grandson’s lab began doing the same thing. They took her to the vet and she was treated for allergies. I sent them some salmon oil and recommended they add a whole raw egg to the diet. She has cleared except for one small spot. I volunteer for Great Dane rescue and we have been having the same problems with the Danes…dandruff and itching. I began feeding the one I have just adopted the salmon oil and a raw egg at both feedings. He is slicking off, the itching has all but subsided and his coat is becoming shiny. He has been on the egg for over a month and the salmon oil was started last week. Please don’t be afraid to feed the eggs. Several years ago I had several orphaned puppies that were brought to me. I lived close to a vet school and was taken courses there…I talked to one of my professors and he recommended I mix a concoction to feed the puppies…this was whole egg, canned evaporated milk and raw hamburger meat. I also added baby vitamin drops. The pups grew, were shiny and had no health problems…
Sometimes keeping the diet simple is the best. Our dogs are canines…carnivores…they aren’t meant to eat a diet of grains and too much vegetables…
I own a genet and he eats Primal frozen raw…It has some ground veggies in it…I’ve been doing rescue of one sort or another for years…dogs, cats, wild animals…almost all have been carnivores….A very old vet told me one time to feed an animal as close to his native diet as possible…this eliminates many digestive problems. So…I feed grain free food…I have to keep the feeding pans around that slow down the eating process for many of the Danes I get…they have been half starved and abused…they eat so fast food can come back up…Amazon has some wonderful stainless steel ones.

Always feed the dry food wet…not mushy….just wet. Have you ever tried to gobble down a sandwich too fast? It sticks in the throat…This happens to dogs…puppies and grown dogs need moist food…In the wild they would never eat totally dry feed…You can add a small amount of raw veggies to the dry food. My doesn’t like the veggies but the other Danes I’ve rescued love them…One ate broccoli and cauliflower as a treat…Also..someone mentioned gas….eating and gulp air causes gas…

[Cyndi]

Thanks Barbara O. In my second post, I wrote what I feed her. She is on a raw diet and she gets a few raw eggs per week, as well as tinned sardines a few times a week. I also give her coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil when she get the Dr. Harvey’s Veg 2 bowl occasionally.

[Barbara O]

It seems this year is really a problem. More and more dogs are having, itching, loss of hair, even dry hair. In our part of the southwest, we have dry weather whereas in Texas, my grandson has hot, humid weather…seems the summer is the problem…So…is your raw diet one that you haven’t mixed yourself or is it from something like Raw Instinct or Primal? There is a difference…. Sometimes just waiting and using the least amoount of balanced food can make a difference. I’ll go back and try to find the complete raw diet you’re using…

[Barbara O]

Ok….maybe trying to do too much….Also….how often are you bathing the dog? This can cause dryness…If it were me, I’d try using the frozen, balanced food, either Nature’s Variety Instinct raw food or balanced raw, frozen Primal….Give the dog time to heal…The problem may just be too many different foods…give the animal time to heel. Sometimes we try too hard to help our animals….as a result we overdo what we feed…Make a decision to use one of the balanced frozen foods and stick to it for several weeks…use just one oil….salmon oil, which is the best for pets…then take a look at whether there is some progress or not…make changes slowly…

[DogFoodie]

I wonder if it’s a prickly heat-type of rash? Does she like to lay in the grass?

With the heat and humidity this year, I’ve developed the same thing and it itches like mad and I’m having a hard time getting rid of it.

I was just reading an article in Whole Dog Journal about holistic remedies for skin rashes (that person’s dog had a whole lot of other issues that Bailey doesn’t have) but, she safely used Gold Bond powder on her dog and said that it helped. I wonder about a rinse of diluted water vinegar after a bath or after laying in the grass.

[DogFoodie]

You might also consider a dose of Benadryl to see if that helps. I read 1 to 2 mg per pound of body weight is the proper dose, but that you should administer the low dose first to see if that’s sufficient.

[Cyndi]

Betsy, I do use a vinegar and water rinse on her feet, but never thought about doing that for her belly. Also never thought about using benedryl. I’ll pick some up tomorrow.

Bailey does like to lay in the grass, but she hasn’t been doing that a whole lot lately, which is weird. I think I might get her in to the vet and have them take a look at her.

Well, I better get off of here. We are having a tornado warning and the city sirens went off a few minutes ago. I think Bailey and I will go hang out in the bathtub for a few…

Thank you so much for your help and suggestions Betsy. I’ll let you know what works and what I get figured out.

[LabsRawesome]

Poor Bailey. Hope you can get her feeling better. 🙁

[Cyndi]

Thanks Labs! 🙂 I hope so too!

[USA]

Hi Cyndi

I’m sorry to hear that Bailey is having issues with her skin and coat.

When did you start using the Sentry Natural Defense topical? Could it be related to the scratching? Below are the ingredients for the Sentry topical. It is almost 15% phenols. Phenols can be very irritating to the skin. Personally I would not use it. The Mercola product is much gentler.

Peppermint Oil 3.00%
Cinnamon Oil 4.50% (phenol)
Lemongrass Oil 4.50%
Clove Oil 5.00% (phenol)
Thyme Oil 5.00% (phenol)
Other Ingredients – (Vanillin, Isopropyl Myristate) 78.00%

A low thyroid is NOT always accompanied by weight gain, lethargy or hair loss. Another possible symptom would be aggression. Maybe a little more touchy or in a bad mood etc.

Some blood tests include a basic thyroid level (T4). Call your Vet (the quack) and ask if a T4 was done and what the value was. It is also a good idea to request copies of all the blood tests that Bailey has done so you can spot any trends that a vet might overlook. YOU are the best advocate for your dog. Also try to get a copy of the blood test that Bailey had before the last one and check that T4 value. If a blood test shows a low or borderline low T4 or a downward trend then a complete thyroid panel should be done to confirm. The good news is thyroid medication is pretty safe and inexpensive.

What about treats? Have you added or changed any lately? Can you give us a breakdown on the treats Bailey gets please.

For a soothing, cooling and pH lowering skin rinse I would get a gallon of Aloe vera liquid and pour out 2 cups of liquid (16 oz) and replace with 8 oz of raw apple cider vinegar and 8 oz of witch hazel. This will help with any bacterial or fungal issues that either caused or were created by the scratching and it will also cool and soothe the skin.

Benadryl 1 mg per lb can help but antihistamines are always less effective in dogs because histamine is not as responsible for the symptoms as it is in humans. The antihistamine with the best track record in dogs is Tavist (clemastine).

Give Bailey a belly rub for me!!!

[Cyndi]

Hi USA,

Thanks so much for the response. I hope I don’t forget to address anything. First, I do have Bailey’s blood test results, that the quack vet ran. I don’t see anything on them that says T4. Would it be called something else?

Also, I was possibly thinking that it could be from the Sentry Natural Defense, but then I thought, that’s supposed to “Natural”. I just started using that on April 12. That could possibly be it. Her next dose of that is supposed to be this coming Saturday. Maybe I’ll hold off on that and bathe her real good today or tomorrow and see if that helps.

Also, the new treats I’ve started giving her, which I started about June 6 or so, are: Grandma Lucy’s Blueberry Oven Baked dog treats, Newman’s own Organics Chicken dog treats and Nature’s Variety Prairie Oven Baked treats with Bacon & Apple. She was also eating Merrick’s dehydrated beef lung, but finished those up a few days ago. She’s been eating those for a long time though.

I think I may hold off on the Benedryl too. Because when I give her a bath, I want to see if she’s still itchy and stuff.

Thank you again! I’m gonna keep thinking and probably still make a vet appointment.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Cyndi.

[DogFoodie]

Hey Cyndi,

I bought some of those Grandma Lucy treats once for my two, but didn’t end up finishing the little bag. The ingredients aren’t great with the first ingredient being wheat.

Here are the ingredients: Organic Wheat Flour, Organic Dehydrated Cane Juice, Organic Sunflower and/or Organic Canola Oil and/or Organic Palm Oil, Organic Cane Syrup, Organic Rice Starch, Organic Blueberry Flavor, Organic Vanilla Extract, Soy Lecithin.

Maybe it’s a wheat allergy?

Here are the Newman’s Own Chicken ingredients: Chicken:

Organic Barley Flour, Ground Chicken, Cane Molasses, Organic Carrots, Organic Apples, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Lecithin), Rolled Oats, Rosemary Extract.

And here are the NV Prairie bacon & apple while I’m at it:
Oatmeal
Barley
Tapioca
Bacon
Apples
Turkey Meal
Canola Oil
Montmorillonite Clay
Ground Flaxseed
Natural Flavor
Mixed Tocopherols (preservative)
Citric Acid (preservative)
Rosemary Extract

I’d also think, cut out the treats altogether and see what happens also. Baileys pretty small isn’t she? I was initially thinking a chicken neck or some other raw goodie might be a good treat when you want to give her something, but I know you don’t want to give her too many calories, especially if she’s gained a bit… or maybe a bully stick. Anymore, my two will make a couple of bully sticks last all week. I occasionally use the Prairie biscuits, but more often use the Instinct biscuits. Right now with Sam particularly, I’ve been using the NVI LID biscuits. He loves ’em.

[Cyndi]

Wow! I thought I looked at the ingredients on all those before I bought them, but I guess not. Thanks Betsy! Bailey is/was about 53lbs. (might be a bit more now). She has me trained though, every time she comes in from outside she gets a small treat. Except, when I know she’s playing me and goes out, sits on the deck for a few and comes in and expects a treat. Then I tell her to get a life and go lay down, lol! She doesn’t like any raw veggies or anything, so I’m wondering what I could use for her in the mean time as a small treat when she comes in? & she will go thru an 8″ bully stick in about 45 minutes. They’re too expensive to buy a whole bunch. I do get them occasionally though, and she loves them.

I have also, I just thought of, been giving her Wellness Core grain free food in her kong a couple nights a week when I work my second job. I started using that not too long ago along with Pure Balance wet food. I use a half of one of those little “tubs” in her kong with the Wellness. Geez, maybe it’s a combination of all of that stuff.

My mind has been going nuts, ‘Maybe its this?’ ‘Maybe its that?’ Ugh!!

[losul]

Hi Cyndi.

Read your post and sorry to hear about Bailey’s problems. This might be far-fetched, but I’m going to put it out there anyway.

After reading what you are feeding and reading others initial thoughts about thyroidism brought something to my mind. Hypothyroidism, is more often the case and Hyperthyroidism (high thyroid) is pretty rare in dogs. I’m not knowledgeable about thyroid problems, but after some research, I found indications that hyperthyroidism can cause hair loss just as can hypothyroidism.

Awhile back, Aimee (thnx Aimee) brought up a study in which certain dogs that were fed raw diets developed hyperthyroidism-high thyroxine levels (dietary hyperthyroidism). It turns out that these dogs were either eating tracheas and gullets or eating other meats that had the thyroid glands inadvertently ground up with them. Anyway that study much impacted me, and it would never have occurred to me if Aimee had not brought it up. At the time I was feeding MPC’s beef tripe supermix sometimes (it kind of sounds like you are using it, and as a staple?). Anyway, MPC’s ground beef tripe supermix has 10% trachea and gullet in it. I was concerned enough that I inquired to Paul about it a couple of times, wanting to make sure they were careful not to include the thyroid gland in the supermix. I wasn’t reassured that it didn’t have thyroid gland in it, so I quit feeding it. I still buy some things from MPC, but nothing with trachea or gullet, and not chicken products for other reasons. Just got a new order Friday, it even included goat gonads ( ouchee).

At first this study might sound like another raw feeding bash, but I see no real apparent conflicts of interest in it., it has happened with humans also, “Thyrotoxicosis factitia, as this is called in human medicine, has been reported in people eating hamburgers containing ground beef thyroid or eating excessive amount of sausages containing thyroid hormones (Malvinder and Sturge 2003, Conrey and other 2008, Hendriks and Looij 2010).”

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01189.x/full

As I said, it might be far fetched, as it seems like other symptoms might be present if it were hyperthyroidism, maybe even weight loss and hyperactivity. But if you were to get her checked, and it would turn out to be HIGH thyroxine levels….. Also know that if it were dietary hyperthyroidism, it is easily reversable.

Cyndi, there is another possible problem I can see. Are you using the pre-mixes such as SSLL with a complete grind- meat, bones, organs and tripe? Those pre-mixes are really designed to use with muscle meats only- no bones or organs. Alot of folks would say that the MPC beef tripe supermix (if that’s what you are using) is (or should be if in right proportions) completely balanced by itself. I would say it should be very close to balanced, and shouldn’t ever have the full supplementation that you are adding with the pre-mixes, IMO. The pre-mixes add all the vitamins/minerals needed in absence of bone and organs. For just one thing an overabundance of calcium/phosphorus, if you are using bone in grinds with the pre-mixes. You aren’t using cod liver oil also, I hope? I think excessive calcium, especially along with excessive vitamin D, can be a cause of hypercalcemia. Parathyroid and thyroid glands attempt to regulate blood calcium/phosphorus.

Whatever it may be, I hope Bailey gets better very soon!

[DogFoodie]

As always, very thoughtful Losul.

Very timely information for me also as I just got a MPC order, too. I had planned to use the whole ground chicken to top Sam’s food, but he wouldn’t touch it. He discovered, however, last night that he loves the Tripe Supermix. I used it to top his kibble today and found myself wondering during my commute to work how often / and for how long I could safely feed it to him alone. He snarfed up the topper and ate just a bit of the kibble so I thought maybe I’d feed him the tripe alone. Now, I think I’ll stick to using it as a topper.

Goat gonads? What were you thinking? Your curiosity got the best of you, didn’t it? ; )

[Cyndi]

Hi losul, thank you for bringing all that up about that study amy read. I read about that as well, and completely forgot about it.

I thought the SSLL pre-mix was only supposed to be used with boneless meats (which I use in the am) but I didn’t realize I wasn’t supposed to use it with organ meat. The am meal I mix up for her is, from Hare Today, and it is Boneless ground beef, ground beef organs and the ground tripe. The organs consist of (heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, gullet and trachea) and the tripe does include the spleen. Bailey gets that mix about 4 or 5 days a week. Ugh!! Maybe that’s it right there and it’s just been getting worse over the past year?

On her blood work that she had done in March, I don’t see anywhere it lists anything about T-4 or thyroxine levels. I don’t know what all the letter and stuff stand for though. I know she had a low monocyte level and there were a couple of other number in the high normal range.

Thank you so much for your response and bringing that up. I guess I’ll have to change her morning mix now too. Ugh!! I wish she could tell me what’s going on!!

EDIT** I forgot to comment on the goat gonads, lol! Thanks Betsy! Goat Gonads???? Lmao!!! Enjoy!!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by Cyndi.

[losul]

LOL, Betsy. Yes, I guess it did!

Those billy goats seemed to have been pretty well endowed. Being a guy, I cringe at the thought of actually feeding them, though. I’m kind of remorseful about it….

[Cyndi]

Ok, I just made a vet appointment for her for today. I’m going to have them run blood work again so I can check it against the results from March.

Also, losul, today I was going to make up another batch of her a.m. mix. Should I not use the tripe and organs and just use the boneless ground beef. I really hate to waste the organs and tripe because I just got a Hare order not too long ago and I have like 5 of each of the beef, organs and tripe. Or maybe just not feed her that for a while? I’m so confused now! Lol!

[losul]

Your welcome Cyndi.

Again, hyperthyroid maybe a more remote possibility, just thought it should mentioned as one.

Good, you aren’t using bone in grinds with the pre-mixes.

Looks like you are already using a good amount and assortment of organs which are already rich in certain vitamins/minerals, using those pre-mixes with them could make the meal as a whole overly rich in those same vitamins/minerals, not sure how much could become a problem. I think if you were to inquire to Steve Brown, he would likely be responsive to any questions.

[losul]

Cyndi, I tend to err on the side of caution.

Since you are going to the vet, you could wait for results before making any drastic changes, or drawing any kind of conclusions.

Does your vet already know, you are a raw feeder?

[Cyndi]

Good idea losul, thank you. I’ll email Steve here shortly.

Thank you again!

[Cyndi]

Yes my vet does know I feed raw, and does NOT agree with it. I haven’t been able to find another vet that does, and this vet that she goes to is AWESOME with her as well as everyone that works there. I really like the place, they just don’t agree with the feeding raw, but they do know.

I’ll keep you posted on what happens at the vet….

[InkedMarie]

Cyndi,
I’m reading this late, sorry Baileys going thru this. Let us know how how the vet appt goes.

[Cyndi]

Thanks Marie! Our appointment is in an hour. I’ll let you know what I find out…

[Lilmonster]

Aww poor Bailey. Hope the vet visit goes well Cyndi!

I don’t have nearly as much to contribute as everyone else already has, but Lily was also shedding/itching a ton before I switched her to raw (that was part of why I took the plunge), and I’ve definitely noticed a decrease in her itching lately so my fingers are crossed that it was the kibble that was causing her issue. I know that doesn’t apply to your situation, but for what it’s worth I did give her a Benadryl at her vet’s suggestion (they told me to give her one 25 mg pill – she’s 40 lbs) when she itched til she bled and then wouldn’t leave the scab alone, and it stopped her itching immediately and lasted for the whole evening. If you do decide to give it, hopefully that will help relieve some of Bailey’s discomfort while you’re figuring out the root cause.

[Cyndi]

Hi everyone! Just back from the vet. She did do bloodwork and is sending it off to check her thyroid. Won’t know the results of that for a few days, BUT, as I expected, she thinks Bailey has a nutritional deficiency because of her raw diet. She encouraged me to atleast, if I wanted to keep her on raw, go with a premade raw like Bravo or Primal or something like that, so it’s already balanced.

I was going back and forth in my head the past few months and thinking I might switch her to a good 5 star kibble in the am and either raw of Freshpet or something for dinner. For the year and a half she’s been on raw, I have been wondering if I’m meeting all her nutritional needs. I know she eats better than most dogs, but I don’t want to risk her health in doing so.

So, until I find out different from the blood test, I’m going to assume it’s nutritional related and started shopping around for the best kibble and just do healthy toppers as well. Thanks for everyone’s help! I really appreciate it!

[Cyndi]

Ok, since my vet update I’ve been thinking. If I switched Bailey from raw to canned or kibble in the am, does anyone know if I should do it gradually or just start giving it to her? She’s been on raw for about a year and a half. I don’t want to upset her stomach, but she is used to eating alot of different things. Thanks again, in advance for anyone’s help!

[USA]

Hi Cyndi

I know this is very upsetting to you. Please don’t make any major changes to Bailey’s diet just yet. Wait until you see the test results and also see what happens when you stop the treats and the Sentry Natural Defense.

Regarding the AM feeding unless you are adding more than 10% liver or 20% non-liver organs then the AM meal would be pretty well balanced. The PM meal is the one that could use some adjustments to make it balanced. Fresh veggies or a multivitamin/mineral that do not supply more than a small amount of calcium and phosphorous are needed to balance the PM meal along with some fat adjustments.

I sent Steve Brown an email about his dinner mixes and organs and here is his response:

“Is it okay to feed muscle meat AND organs when using your
dinner mix?

Yes, it’s okay to add muscle meat and some organ meat, but please don’t
add a lot of liver. Keep the liver to less than 10% of the total meat.
Adding up to 20% hearts is fine.

Steve Brown”

[Cyndi]

Thank you USA, I really appreciate you finding that out for me and emailing Steve Brown. I was so busy today at work I completely forgot. That is good to know. So, her morning meals are pretty ok then. She does get veggies added in the morning occasionally.

I’m just going thru a bunch of options in my head. I haven’t decided anything yet. I’m gonna wait and see what her blood work shows and see how she does not getting the Sentry Natural Defense, like you said.

It’s just all so confusing.

[Dori]

Hi Cyndi. I’ve been reading this forum and wondering what, if anything, I can add. One…..Wait until blood test results come back. I hope that you had your vet do a complete CBC and also thyroid work up. Thyroid lab results always take a few more days to come back then the rest of tests. Hannah has been hypothyroid for years (loss of hair, etc. etc.). Another thing is that if you can afford it please don’t go with Bravo (recalls and other issues that I have heard about from friends that used to feed Bravo). Primal is an excellent choice. Obviously so is Darwins (in the long run, cheaper that most commercial raw diets). Also Answers Detailed, Stella & Chewy’s Raw, Natures Variety Instinct Raw. Obviously there are many other fine quality commercial complete and balanced raw diets. Please wait, breathe, and wait for test results. Then……weigh your options. The last option you should go with, imho, is kibble, especially with a dog that has been eating raw. Wait and see what’s going on with Bailey before jumping ship. Keep us posted.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Cyndi,

I agree with James. I wouldn’t make any big changes in Bailey’s diet just yet. I’d take a look at those areas that could use some tweaking and make those small changes now. But, I honestly think I would wait to make any big changes until after you get her test results back. It’s never too soon to start researching though.

Now, that said, it sounds like changing Bailey’s diet is something you’ve had a bit of a nagging concern about for at least a little while and I truly believe you have to do what your gut instinct tells you to do. If that means commercial raw or even kibble with toppers, kibble with an ABC day, etc., I support your decision. At the end of the day, you have to have peace and following your conscious is what will get you there.

You have, and will continue to, do right by Bailey.

[Cyndi]

Dori, Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it. The vet didn’t run another set of blood tests today, she had that done including the CBC a few months ago. She said she didn’t feel it was necessary. However, she is having blood tested for anything thyroid related. Results wont’ be for a few days.

& Betsy, thank you as well, again. I really do appreciate different thoughts and perspectives on stuff like this. I’m gonna try to let my brain rest, and not think of any of it for a few days. Bailey isn’t THAT miserable. She’s shedding more than she is scratching, so she’s good until I figure out what I’m going to do. & yes, I WILL continue to do right by her, thank you! I appreciate that. I’m going to do right by her if it kills me, lol!

[losul]

Hi again Cyndi.

It’s to be expected, that the first thing a vet against raw home feeding is going to automatically suspect a deficiency, nutritional excess or something. It’s only going to take what 2 or 3 days to get any blood work results. So I agree with U.S.A. and all the others, and as I said previously, I wouldn’t make any immediate major dietary changes or assume much, at least until then. And even then if nothing comes up in the bloodwork, your vet will still be biased against your home prepping. It won’t hurt, at least not anything but your pocketbook, to use some commercial prepared raw, in place of some of your home prepped., if that makes everyone feel better. But to just switch immediatelyto a lot of kibble, uh no.

Thanks U.S.A for writing to Steve Brown. I know that heart muscle is not so much considered an organ for the purposes of feeding, and I use alot of beef hearts, many times a majority component of my homemade, but not so sure that Steve’s intent is nutrient rich organs like kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, etc would fall into that same category of ” 20% is O.K.” with his pre-mix such as heart muscle would.

Regardless of any of that, i don’t hink it likely that what you have been feeding is causing any kind of major problems, The main thing is that you aren’t feeding bone-in grinds with the pre-mix, I think.

I just wrote Steve asking him to clarify a few more things, actually wrote twice, because I forgot something the first message. I keep a bag of his mix here on the rare occaison that I use if I get lazy, forgetful, etc, for whatever reason don’t want to do the full home prep. I’ve always assumed it was designed to be balanced with muscle meat alone, the instructions don’t say otherwise. I’ve never used liver/other organs with with it. Should it not be believed then that it’s balanced then with using muscle meat alone? It shouldn’t be so ambiguous, IMO.

I know that Know better pet foods has 2 pre-mixes for raw feeding, Better in the raw. One formula MUST have liver added by the user, the other NO liver should be added.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by losul.

[crazy4cats]

It’s funny this is coming up because I was asking this very question yesterday. I was thinking of using his dinner mix occasionally and was wondering if I could just buy a couple pounds of ground turkey at Costco to mix it with. I have no idea what part of the turkey is included when you buy ground turkey or even ground beef for that matter. What is considered muscle meat and are there any ground organs in ground meat that you buy at the grocers? Cyndi, I don’t mean to hijack. You and I discussed this a bit yesterday and thought it might be helpful to you too. Good luck again with your Bailey!

[losul]

Hmm, i see now that your vet has just ordered the thyroid panel. Let us know the results when you can.

I second Everything Betsy said, and she said so eloquently! Bailey’s in great hands!

[losul]

Hi C4C, I guess I missed your post regarding this the other day. Good question. I think nowadays it’s kind of ambiguous as to what’s exactly in pre-ground grocery store meats. But I would think it’s safe assume there’s no organ meats in them unless specified, and unless I’m mistaken. It used to be that, with ground beef they specified ground chuck, ground round, ground sirloin, etc. Now from what I see it’s just specified as 80, 85, 90, 93% lean etc, without any indication from what cuts they come from. I think I’ve seen ground turkey sometimes specified with so much percentage white meat, but it’s even hard to tell exactly what might be in it also.

Since I have bought a grinder, I rarely buy anything grocery store pre-ground, not even for ourselves.

I’ve always been under the impression that most folks who were using the the pre-mixes such as SSLL, were using just that, the pre-ground grocery store meats, or maybe cubing up from cuts of meats, and not adding any organ meats, for a balanced meal.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by losul.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 3 months ago by losul.

[Cyndi]

Thanks losul and C4C. I sincerely appreciate your input. & C4C, no apologies necessary, your question basically ties in to what I’m dealing with too. I’ve always assumed ground beef or the like is just that, ground beef. No organs. I would think ground turkey or chicken is the same, just ground meat, no organs.

I agree yesterday I was thinking in my head that I wouldn’t have all these problems if I just went with a good kibble. Thanks for talking sense into me everyone. I guess if I use just ground beef and maybe tripe in the am with the SSLL, that would be much better. Bailey already does get liver a couple times a week with dinner.

Maybe if I even did one meal of commercial raw, if it’s not too expensive, that would balance everything out. Or just tweak her am meals a bit? Didn’t I say I was going to quit thinking so much til after the blood work?? Lol!

Thanks again you guys, for all your input. I really do appreciate it!!

[DogFoodie]

I knew you’d keep worrying about it! LOL! I would too. : )

I was thinking about something last night and Losul read my mind (probably all of our minds) when he said, “It’s to be expected, that the first thing a vet against raw home feeding is going to automatically suspect a deficiency, nutritional excess or something.”

Those test results will be in soon. Hang in there!

[losul]

Good Morning all!

Steve Brown replied to me this morning. He didn’t reply directly to my second message, and to be honest, i don’t remember exactly the content and what I asked on the second. Probably he went into depth enough on the first to satisfy the second.
—————

Comments: Hi Steve. There has been some questions about using your
dinner mix with muscle meat and with or without various organ
meats,(liver, kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, etc.) but especially
liver. I was under the impression that it was designed to be balanced
without addition of any organs, using just all muscle meat, no liver,
etc. But then a poster on DFA wrote that you had replied to his
question as the following; ——————– Is it okay to feed
muscle meat AND organs when using your dinner mix? Yes, its okay to
add muscle meat and some organ meat, but please dont add a lot of
liver. Keep the liver to less than 10% of the total meat.Adding up to
20% hearts is fine. Steve Brown ———————- Now it’s
unclear to me. SHOULD liver and other organs be added (on top of
muscle meat) to your SSLL mix in order to make a meal balanced? I
have been keeping your dinner mix on hand for those times when I
didn’t want to fully home prep, or if I just had plain meat handy, no
organs, and I always made sure NOT to use the mix with liver. So
now my question to you is, does the mix make a complete balanced
dinner without using organs meats? If so, then does using organ meats
with it pose any danger of oversupplementation of any
vitamins/minerals? Thank you in advance Luv your C.A.D. book.

—-

“Thanks for the really good questions and the clarifications.

YES. When blended according to directions, using just lean meats and, if just feeding beef, some proper oils, the dinner mix will meet AAFCO and NRC standards.

But adding small amounts of organs can help provide more depth to the nutrition. A little bit of liver can help, but no more than 10% of the meat, while heart, which, as you said, some consider to be a muscle meat, can be a much higher percentage. For poultry, the percentage heart can be a little higher, but for beef, I’d prefer less liver (5% range) and heart (10-15% range).

I am a little wary about adding other organs, such as the spleen, pancreas, and so forth. These organs can be very mineral rich, and I’ve not analyzed the dinner mix using these organs. My intuition tells me that if one can get these organs, the dinner mix will not be needed, except for perhaps calcium, phosphorus, iodine and manganese. As I think this through, if one can get these organs, a much simpler nutrient blend would be better.

I hope this helps.

Steve Brown

—————————————–

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