[joanne l]

Just curious, does anyone use Fromm anymore? I ask this because of the DCM issues. I feed Purina, Holistic Select, and Fromm. But I stopped the Fromm. My dog loves Fromm but I don’t know if I should keep it in my rotation?

[InkedMarie]

Joanne,
Are you on FB? If yes, there is a great group I can point you to. It is run by veterinarians and knowledgeable lay people who have spent months doing research. If you join the group, you will see a chart with foods that are. Implicated in DCM and also a list of the breeds and how many have DCM. This is just dogs /owners in the group.

To answer your question, I would not feed Fromm or Holistic Select. The recommendation from the experts in the group is to feed a grain inclusive food that follows WSAVA guidelines. Those foods are Royal Canin, Iams, Eukanuba, Science Diet and Purina. Fromm has been implicated in DCM in this group but not sure about Holistic Select. It does not follow the guidelines so I would not feed it. My opinion is that I’d rather feed a food that follows these guidelines until we know more.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Joanne-
I no longer feed Fromm either. Too bad I thought I found a food that they did well on to put in their rotation. I wasn’t feeding a grain free formula, but it was very high in fiber. One of the things that researchers say may be connected to DCM. In addition, I’ve learned that they do not employ a veterinary nutritionist and haven’t for a long tome, if ever. To top it off, as Marie stated, one study links them to nutritional-mediated DCM.

I’m sticking with the foods that meet the WSAVA guidelines.

[joanne l]

Thanks everyone I will continue with Purina and may use Royal C. as well. What a shame for Fromm! Oh by the way Merrick is owned by Purina. So do you all think that Merrick would be good to feed??

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[crazy4cats]

I don’t really know how involved Purina is other than financially. I’ve been following the FB group that Marie mentioned. They don’t include them in their list of foods that they have found to be WSAVA compliant. You could always email them and ask them directly. I was also feeding their Whole Earth Farms line and will not be feeding it any longer either. I feel that I can rotate between only a couple of kibbles, but switch up the toppers for variety. (Mostly canned and maybe some fresh chicken, fish and/ or eggs now and then too. They are doing great on PPP Focus kibble and canned!

[InkedMarie]

I can’t remember exactly what it is but I believe Merrick is owned by Purina only. Purina has nothing to do with the manufacturing of Merrick. C4C is correct, they’re not WSAVA compliant.

Taurinedcm.org is the website for info if you’re not on FB.

[anonymous]

A new formula from FROMM. YAY!
I spoke to a representative at Fromm and was told they have a veterinarian and a person with a PHD in nutrition on staff.
You can call their 1-800 number to ask for yourself.
https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/four-star/dry/highlander-beef-oats-n-barley-recipe

Highlander Beef, Oats, ‘n Barley Recipe Dog · Four-Star · Dry
Info

A Scottish-inspired entrée specially prepared with beef, whole oats, whole barley, and an assortment of fruits and vegetables
Ingredients
Beef, Beef Broth, Lamb Meal, Haddock, Whole Oats, Dried Egg Product, Whole Barley, Oat Groats, Potatoes, Pearled Barley, Pumpkin, Dried Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat, Beef Liver, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Chicken, Cheese, Chicken Liver, Flaxseed, Celery, Carrots, Apples, Broccoli, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins, Chicory Root Extract, Salt, Minerals, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Cranberries, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Blueberries, Sodium Selenite, Probiotics.
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 27% MIN
Crude Fat 16% MIN
Crude Fiber 5.5% MAX
Moisture 10% MAX
Caloric Content
3,696kcal/kg
1,680 kcal/lb
388 kcal/cup
Kibble
Size Comparison
Available Sizes
5 lb, 15 lb, 30 lb.
Fromm Four-Star Nutritionals® Highlander Beef, Oats, ‘n Barley™ Recipe Food for Dogs is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages, including growth of large size dogs (70 lb. or more as an adult).

[crazy4cats]

Have they done a feed trial on their new fabulous food? They do not have a board-certified veterinary nutritionist on staff. I just checked last week.

Most importantly, they have several cases of diet-related DCM. These dogs got better when they changed their diet. If they cannot formulate a grain free recipe correctly, I don’t trust that their recipes with grain are any better.

Hey, this is coming from someone who used to feed it and am disappointed I had to switch. But, it’s not worth the risk in my opinion. I don’t really understand how people can become so attached to a dog food?

[joanne l]

Thanks a lot everyone, I will check out that website FB and Anon that is great about Fromm, I like the beef and barley food! I will look into that one. I hope it is okay. I know that Fromm was on the list for DCM, but what surprises me is that they have been around for over 100 years. That is weird that dogs are having these issues with their food. If makes me wonder that if companies are using foods sources that contain a chemical that is causing DCM as well as grain free? I do believe that grain free is not good for dogs, but I also believe that maybe some chemical as well. But if it was a chemical I would think the FDA would have found it by now I guess.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[anonymous]

Well, I am no scientist and am not looking to get into a debate about which foods are good and which foods are bad.
Often it depends on the dog and what agrees with them.

My dogs are doing very well on Fromm Classic Adult and the other one on Fromm Salmon La Veg.

My 2 dogs see the regular vet and one sees two specialists, they all approve of Fromm, they have examined my dogs and know their histories.
That works for me!

[anonymous]

“I don’t really understand how people can become so attached to a dog food?”

Yeah, like the big four. Mind boggling.

We also use Blue canned foods (gasp!)

[crazy4cats]

anon101-
It’s really not about the big four to me. It’s about meeting the WSAVA guidelines. Namely, employing a team of experts, including a full-time board-certified veterinary nutritionist and doing feeding trials. The “big four” go over and above the AAFCO requirements in this area.

joannel- You are correct. Toxicity is one of the possibilities the researchers (FDA and several veterinary colleges) are looking into. You may find this interesting: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.253.11.1390

[anonymous]

Bottom line:

You are not a veterinary healthcare professional and neither am I.

“And as the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts”.

PS: I went to the WSAVA website. They certainly are asking for donations/membership fees.
Hmmm

No thanks!

[crazy4cats]

Yes, they probably are asking for donations. However, you do not have to donate to follow their guidelines. Shame on these boutique companies who are not putting any of their profits into hiring a team of experts or doing any feeding trials! Hmmmm?
No thanks!

[anonymous]

Fromm is not a boutique food. My vet confirms this and I believe him.
Actually some of their basic formulas are quite reasonable.

Fromm has many loyal customers, they don’t need me to defend them.

To each his own.

[Bobby dog]

I contacted Fromm this week and asked a few specific questions in regards to the education of the people they employ full time to concoct their recipes:

“Thank you for reaching out to Fromm Family Foods. I would be happy to give you some information.

Do you employ a full-time board certified by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition Vet? Do you employ a full-time PhD companion animal nutritionist?

No, we do not employ a PhD or board certified veterinary nutritionist.

If you don’t employ full-time people with the credentials above, do you consult with anyone on formulations and what are their credentials?

Our foods are formulated by Mr. Tom Nieman who is the owner of the company and holds a degree in chemical engineering. Mr. Nieman was the direct understudy of Dr. Willard Roberts, who was the chief nutritionist at Fromm Family Foods for over 35 years. For five generations Fromm Family Foods has brought together veterinarians, biochemists, microbiologists, biologists, research specialists and food production engineers to formulate our foods. Our products are formulated to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles. They meet AAFCO nutrient profiles by formulation and by analysis of the finished product.”

They bring together people along with their “Head Chef,” no one with credentials in small animal nutrition full time.

[crazy4cats]

Anon-
Go ahead and feed Fromm. Chances are your dog/s will be fine. However, this is Joanne’s thread.
I am answering HER questions. I have looked into Fromm. I have kept up to date on all the current information from all of the science-based experts investigating regarding the recent increase of dogs being diagnosed with DCM.

Fromm is definitely a boutique food according to Lisa Freeman’s (veterinary nutritionist) definition. I do not believe they follow any of the WSAVA recommendations. Actually, I think they do have their own manufacturing facility. However, they use exotic ingredients that are new to the industry and are not tested. They have dogs that have been diagnosed with DCM while eating it and got better when fed something else.

Check out Dr. Joshua Stern’s (UC Davis) peer-reviewed study for the proof.

Some people smoke and don’t get cancer, some dogs eat boutique foods and don’t get DCM. I’m not taking the chance!

Again, go ahead and feed it!

[anonymous]

You (and others) are being hysterical (imo)! I hate to tell you this but there is no perfect dog food.

I don’t care how many reputable veterinary websites you go to, it does not compare with one vet that has examined your dog and knows the dog’s history.

NO REPUTABLE VETERINARIAN GIVES ONLINE ADVICE REGARDING A DOG THAT THEY HAVE NOT PERSONALLY EXAMINED.
It is unethical.

Peace out!

PS: The topic of this thread is Fromm Dog Food. Therefore I am on topic. If you don’t like my comments, just ignore them.

[crazy4cats]

The veterinarians I follow have not given any medical advice regarding any medical condition. Yes, that would be unethical. Recommending a food that follows the WSAVA guidelines is not.

[anonymous]

But you are bashing specific brands and recommending specific brands.

Not cool.

Too much misinformation floating around…

[Bobby dog]

Not hysterical, just looking for the safest food to feed to avoid health issues. Just like I use a leash when walking my dog in the city. Eight simple recommendations are a no brainer for me.

I’m not sure I follow your logic anon. You have written you trust your Vet’s opinion on pet food, yet you also regularly post links to the Skeptvet who recommends Tuft’s nutritional resources. They recommend following WSAVA recommendations. I’m guessing today your Vet’s recs are good.

/forums/topic/grain-free-diets-and-heart-disease/page/3/#post-128598

[anonymous]

“WSAVA recommendations”

WSAVA does not bash any specific brands nor do they recommend any specific brands.

[Bobby dog]

Yessssssss, finally YOU GET IT!!!! They have RECOMMENDATIONS for CHOOSING a pet food. Eight of them, read all about it!!

https://www.wsava.org/wsava/media/arpita-and-emma-editorial/selecting-the-best-food-for-your-pet.pdf

[anonymous]

I did. They are vague.

They mention no specific brands to avoid. They also do not recommend any specific brands.

Nothing more to see here folks, let’s move along.

[joanne l]

How come Fromm been around for over 100 years and can’t meet certain guidelines? I thought I could trust Fromm, grain in foods, since they been around so long. I agree to not use grain free or exotic meats, but what about the grain in formulas?

[Bobby dog]

I guess you don’t get it. 🙁 They don’t RECOMMEND BRANDS or SPECIFIC DIETS, they have eight recommendations for choosing a pet food from any company you choose. They RECOMMEND asking for the info from any company you consider feeding.

[anonymous]

Yes, and I did that and was satisfied with the response from Fromm that I got plus the 3 veterinarians (2 of them diplomates/board certified) that have examined my dogs and know their histories.
It’s all good!

I checked with Blue too.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Joanne:
IMO it doesn’t matter how long a company has been around. It depends on how they run their company.

I am now following all WSAVA recommendations for choosing a pet food company. Prior to the DCM alert I followed most of the WSAVA recs. The few I didn’t care so much to follow were if a company did research, conducted feeding trials, had their own manufacturing facilities, and employed full time credentialed employees educated in companion animal nutrition. My thoughts were those things are expensive and I can see why a company doesn’t invest in that stuff. Well, my thoughts changed after this DCM alert.

Then I took a look at various BEG company profits. Why shouldn’t they invest their profits back into producing a safe food? Why should my dog be their guinea pig? They are all making a boat load of money.

I’m loyal to family and friends among other things, not dog food. I only care about feeding a safe food. If any food I feed becomes unsafe to feed, I will move onto the next brand.

[Bobby dog]

So let’s agree to disagree, we have different pet food criteria’s. Fromm doesn’t meet WSAVA recs.

[anonymous]

WSAVA? Their recommendations are vague. I believe the pet foods I have chosen to feed do meet their wishy-washy recommendations 🙂

They have not examined my pets so I am not interested in their opinions for the most part anyway.

[Bobby dog]

Vague? lol The only vagueness you will get from those recs are the wishy washy answers from the pet food companies when asking them. Like Fromm’s they “brought” people together to make pet food. lol What does that even mean, did they Skype, phone call, e-mail, visited a day or two for consult with their “Head Chef?”

Ask these questions verbatim from most pet food companies and enjoy the wishy washy answers you get.

You might reconsider posting links that recommend Tufts or UC Davis nutritional services, it makes your point wishy washy if you really aren’t interested in WSAVA recs…

P.S. WSAVA does not examine pets

[anonymous]

“WSAVA does not examine pets”

Exactly my point!

[Bobby dog]

Yup, they have recommendations for CHOOSING pet food, they don’t examine pets.

Perhaps send the WSAVA link to your Vet along with the links you have posted from the Skeptvet on these topics since they have examined your dogs. Lot’s of nutritional info in those links that reference Tuft’s, UC Davis, the researchers involved in the DCM alert, the FDA…

[anonymous]

My vets are very well informed and aware of the FDA alerts as I have posted many times before.
I have stated the recommendations they have made specifically for my pets in previous posts.

[Bobby dog]

That’s fine for you to follow your Vet’s advice, their advice does not meet my criteria, or more importantly my Vets’ recommendations. Agree to disagree.

[crazy4cats]

Hey look guys!

SkepVet gives nutrition resources for pet owners! Surprise, surprise! Look who is first on the list!

Nutrition Resources for Pet Owners

[anonymous]

Again. No specific brands of pet food are bashed nor are any specific brands of pet food recommended.
*sigh*

[Bobby dog]

Yup, “nutrition resources,” again not RECOMMENDATIONS for brands…sigh is right!

[InkedMarie]

Omg. I give up. Anon, who idolizes Skeptvet and hangs on his every word, is going to feed Fromm no matter what we say. By the way, it’s pretty hypocritical telling people to listen to what the vet who has examined your dog says, then listen to all SkeptVet says.

Joanne, you said you were going to check out the FB website. Sorry but that makes no sense. Are you on Facebook or are you not? If yes, we can point you to the group. If you are not on FB, look at the website I posted.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by InkedMarie.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by InkedMarie.

[anonymous]

That’s right, I will recommend a food that I have had a positive experience with. I can voice my opinion, same as you can.

[InkedMarie]

How come you deleted the links you originally posted?

I had positive experience with Earthborn but considering it is implicated as well in DCM, my positive experience means nothing since it has caused DCM. There’s more to this than your positive experience.

[joanne l]

If I go on FB how do I find it? I just wanted to add, that since it is grain free and exotic meats we should avoid, what would be wrong with feeding the Fromm’s grain in diets? I understand about what everyone is saying about the guidelines, but isn’t it really about the grain free recipe? Another words, I know people that were feeding Merrick grain free now they switched to merrick grain in, they still stood with the same brand.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[InkedMarie]

Joanne: Taurine-Deficient(Nutritional) Dilated Cardiomyopathy

There are a few DCM groups but that is the one I’m talking about.

[Sanne]

It is not just an issue of grain free, the exact cause at this point in time has not even been identified. Some dogs have gotten DCM on grain inclusive foods too. That is why the recommendations right now really stress that the food should be trial tested too. Just being grain inclusive is not enough

[Bobby dog]

Well written Sanne!!!!! People get hung up on the GF aspect of the alert and don’t understand that is only one of the unknowns.

Sanne what country do you live in?

[Sanne]

Indeed! Drives me a little crazy when people say their food is pea free so it’s fine

I live in Netherlands

Does my English give me away that easily lol!

[joanne l]

Well most vets are telling people to use grain in diets and not to use grain free or exotic meats. I am no expert, but I will go by my instinct I never liked grain free anyway, I don’t like giving my dog legumes or peas in that matter anyway. I much rather give rice with his meat than legumes. By n means am I trying to tell anyone what to do, that is just how I want to feed my dog. Right now what is suspected is grain free and exotic meats, I don’t feed it anyway, but that is what is suspected. And if it is suspected I wouldn’t take the change and use it. If the FDA suspected something with our food ingredient I bet you would not touch it until further notice.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by joanne l.

[crazy4cats]

Not sure if you guys saw this link:

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.253.11.1390

Hopefully, they are getting closer to what is going on.

[joanne l]

Thanks for the post. But still getting back on topic I think the Fromm grain in foods maybe okay. But not the duck at all. I really would like to try the new one, it is beef and barley. Well at least Fromm is making an effort to make a grain in food that people want.

[InkedMarie]

Joanne, if you’re talking about Fromm being ok in regards to DCM, it is not okay. I’m sorry, I’ve tried to help. You’re not listening, not looking, not receptive…I’m not sure but good luck. I’m done.

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