[aimee]

Hi Cheryl,

I wouldn’t expect a general veterinarian to formulate home cooked diets. There is a reason that it takes an additional 3-4 years of study to become a nutritionist. No way to “cram” that into vet school. I would expect though that your vet should have the resources to refer to someone who could provide that service for you.

I’ve used the vet therapeutic diets for a past dog and for a current dog. Frankly I find it odd and so sad that people think that vets recommend diets because of kickbacks or to make money. The only company I know of that give vets kickbacks is The Honest Kitchen.

[aimee]

Hi Kristin,

My dogs primarily eat commercial pet food along with some home cooked. The home cooked I add is primarily vegetables… all the colors of the rainbow, along with some lean meat. Primarily the home cooked is from my dinners but occasionally I’ll steam and puree large batches of veggies and cook meats specifically for them and freeze it to use as needed.

In regards to vets recommending consults if you are home cooking, I think all vets have a duty to recommend that the diet be evaluated to ensure the needs are being met. In fact I’d think they open themselves up to malpractice if they don’t make that recommendation. Similarly, if raw feeding, they have a duty to inform of the parasite and infectious disease risk. This is needed not only for the health of the patient but also extends to public health. Vets won’t get in trouble with AVMA, that has nothing to do with it, but they can lose their license and a huge chunk of change if they are sued if a person in the home comes down with illness traced back to the dog’s raw diet and it isn’t documented in the record that they advised against it. In fact just had a conversation about this at the vet. The CDC was involved, there was an outbreak of Salmonella in the household, 3 children were ill. Same strain in the raw food as in the dog’s poop as in the children. Thankful he had it documented in the record that he discussed risk with owners and advised against raw food.

[Kristin C]

Thanks for the info Aimee.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Aimee,
Please don’t be offended by what I have to say,
I find it odd that you find the majority of the vet diets acceptable.
The list of ingredients reads like a horror show-a lot of these ingredients according to this website are downright dangerous to feed.
Now, that being said, if it came down to (in my case) Pepper’s life to continue only if she were fed a vet diet-well, you can guess the answer -to prove my point I have a case of the Royal Canin hypo. hydrolyzed protein for her just in case, what I am trying now will not work.
I would never put Pepper’s life at risk,just to prove a point.
As for THK, they are very UPPITY, when I called & asked them why they have no grain free potato free mixes, the lady got annoyed at me,as if how do I dare ask them that.
As for the vets getting some kickback, Aimee, I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY DO-A VET IN A WEAK MOMENT TOLD ME SO, that is why he decided not to carry pet food at his clinic.
They earn trips, seminars etc. really it is a common practice.
In the end we all do what we feel is best,that’s all that the fur-kids can ask.

[Kristin C]

I am going to tag onto what Cheryl said, I don’t mean to offend either. But, Aimee, it’s a little confusing why Balance It is the only dinner mix/supplement that makes sense to you but you’ve never used it. Dogaware.com does not recommend it, it’s an entirely synthetic product. But since I don’t know anyone’s background I am going with it’s just a matter of opinion. I find the dinner mix/supplement category a bit confusing and since there are too many ingredient variables to consider I am guessing they will not be reviewed. Since I don’t eat an entirely balanced meal every day myself and don’t really worry about it I am just going to continue feeding my dogs as much whole food variety that I can and hope the new SSLL product is not too far apart from the old formula, because it works for us.

[aquariangt]

Aimee refuses to believe the vet food issue. I’ve been told firsthand by a family member about kickbacks, but she still is on board with hills and rc. As far as dinner mixes go- there are others out there that many people on here have used successfully for years, so I wouldn’t shy away from them

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Kristen,
I also can’t understand why a website that allows you to design homemade meals would use a synthetic supplement-its counter productive.
I also want to mention no matter what meals I tried to design it was ALWAYS recommended that the diet was not balanced and that I needed t add the BalanceIt, so now I am truly wondering if all the site wants to do is lure one in with the hope of providing the fur-kids homemade meals and zappo selling their products!!!

[Dori]

Kristin C., Aquariangt and Cheryl H. I wholeheartedly agree with all three of you.

Aimee. I typically don’t get into any discussions with you. I know your stance on foods for your dogs which are at polar opposites of what I feed. That’s fine. Whatever works for ones dogs is what they should be fed. But…I would love some day to know what your real issue is with The Honest Kitchen. You bash them all the time even when no one is discussing The Honest Kitchen. The COMPLETE MEALS are Complete and Balanced. Their mixes are not. The consumer needs to add the protein to balance it. It would be against the law of their state for them to say otherwise. If you feel that way, I wonder if you’ve attempted to call the state that THK is made and report them? Do you have proof that The Honest Kitchen gives kick backs to veterinarians and that they are the ONLY company that does that. One would be very naive (sp?) to believe that vets carry certain foods in their practices and not be rewarded in return for selling those foods. They are not taking up space with shelves of food for nothing. It is my understanding that they get a certain percentage of the cost of the food. Personally, I’ve never seen The Honest Kitchen at a vets practice. If I did, I would seriously consider switching vets to that clinic. I mean no offense to you aimee, I guess I’ve finally read a post of yours that I actually wanted to know the answer.

I have spoken to customer service people at THK many many times through the years as their complete and balanced meals are in rotation for my three dogs. They have always been courteous, willing to talk with me and answer all the questions I have asked and have even helped me find a holistic/homeopathic nutritionist in my area. No, the nutritionist does not recommend any commercial foods, only raw and home cooked so there was nothing in it for The Honest Kitchen’s customer service people or the company. I have never once called them and gotten an answering machine. Always a polite helpful person transferring me to whatever department I needed to speak to.

[Bobby dog]

Dori:
They have an “Ambassador Program” posted on their website. I don’t know anything about it other then what’s posted.

“Ambassador Program

The ambassador program gives advocates of The Honest Kitchen the ability to get rewarded for their referrals. We provide each ambassador with printed referral coupons that have a unique code. When a customer visits The Honest Kitchen’s website and orders the complimentary bundle of samples and references the ambassador’s code, the ambassador will receive credit. Payment to the ambassadors will be paid out quarterly.

Please contact us if your clinic is interested in participating in our ambassador program.

Veterinary Feed Program

We offer veterinarians and vet students a free box of our dog or cat diets to try on their own pet. If there is a veterinarian that would like to purchase our product to feed their pets, we also offer a discount. Please contact [email protected] for more information.”
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/veterinarians/

[crazy4cats]

Actually, the original poster (Jake’s mom) started this thread to ask for opinions and recommendations on dinner mixes, specifically, The Honest Kitchen. Aimee gave hers. Several people don’t like it. (Aimee’s opinion) I guess it’s up to Jake’s mom to decide.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Dori]

Bobby dog. Thanks.

I didn’t doubt that they do at all, I’d like to know why she thinks that they are the only one. Of course vets are going to get something for carry different companies foods in their practices. It’s a business. They are also not going to give up valuable space in their practices out of the goodness of their hearts. Don’t get me wrong, I love the vet practice that I take the girls to. I love all four doctors, all the techs and the front staff is amazing. All have been their for more years than I can remember. Great group. They are by far the most compassionate, kind animal loving group I have ever been to in all the states that I have lived in in my 66 years. It’s the reason I’ve stuck with them for 13 years and counting. BUT…it’s still a business. Anyone that believes that they are not getting some compensation from all the companies they carry, and probably also why they choose the brands of meds they sell, is being naive (sp?). Aimee has always had something against THK, of course, as well as others and I was just being my old curious self. I do know the old saying that “curiosity killed the cat” but I’ve always believed that “satisfaction brought him back”. I’m a New York City gal by birth, we’re nosy, curious, want answers to everything. I usually don’t butt into too much sometimes I’ll just read a post that bugs me especially when I read that THK is the only company that compensates (or the only one she knows about…you know that’s not true). She’s a really smart lady and because of that I believe she knows better.

[Dori]

Thanks C4C. I should have refreshed my memory on the original OP. The topic just said dinner mixes and her asking about them and didn’t remember her signaling out THK specifically.

[aquariangt]

As far as THK goes-they do offer an employee incentive program of sorts for retail as well. At the shop, when we first started carrying THK, we had to take a little mini online course which explained the process THK uses for making their food, and then they give you vouchers to turn into your distributor for 3 free boxes of the honest kitchen (just 3, and they have an expiration date) so that you can try it on your animals to see how they do, and explain firsthand their benefits. While I did take advantage of this, I had already fed it, so I didn’t need much encouragement on that end. And 3 boxes lasts me a looong time since I use it as a topper, and not as their sole meal. I can only assume they do similar programs for vet offices.

However, that is not the same deal as I understand (also firsthand information) about Hills and the vet clinic my cousin works at. That is a certain rebate percentage off the direct order from hills based on how much of it has sold, which results in higher profits for the clinic, as they aren’t lowering the cost of the food because of this. Not unlike what happens with food purveyors and my company in the food world. The difference is, I order all kinds of food from these purveyors, not just hills 🙂 Vets, like almost any business, still have a certain amount of sales within their position that is asked of them

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Bobby,
I finally found the post i wanted to reply to,this new format drives me crazy,if I am away from the computer, I forget who I need to reply to -sorry.
You asked if I want to feed raw or cooked, honestly, I don’t know.
I guess I could give Miilie a few raw meals per month, in the hot summer here I don’t think so. The heat here is oppressive.
I have been lightly boiling all meats I give to pepper and now Millie.
I still await the Primal raw from the co.
I saw something on u-tube and they were feeding turkey necks-I thought all poultry bones were risky to feed. Do you think a turkey neck is safe for a little schnauzer to chomp on??
Ideally, I guess if Millie could take it vary the kinds of meals within a week, if not vary weekly,I am very new to this & very OCD (ask Shawna) when the welfare of the fur-kids are concerned.
I don’t trust myself.

[Bobby dog]

Cheryl:
I hear you about being cautious! I have tried transitioning my dog to a few raw meals per week, but he just doesn’t care for it. Commercial raw he will eat, not prey model. That is why I am interested in home cooked.

I also tried to introduce RMB’s to him and he just buries them in the yard. Several posters feed chic and turkey necks. It just depends on your comfort level and your dog. Weight bearing bones are not recommended because of their density, your dog could crack a tooth. There is allot of info about RMB’s & raw diets in the forums. Here is a recent RMB thread, check it out and ask away. I unfortunately will not be much help with your RMB questions!
/forums/topic/rmbs-and-recreational-bones/

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. As far as poultry bones, they are risky and NOT to be fed if they are cooked. Raw they say is just fine. I don’t give my three toy dogs any bones to eat. Their too small ( 5, 6 & 7 lbs.) and I’m too afraid of them choking on something. Of course, if you choose to do so, please be sure that you stay with your dogs the entire time they are chomping down the bones so you know they are safe. You have to also know your dogs. Are they gulpers and likely to try to swallow large pieces or are they slow chewers with all foods. That’s an important thing to know. Mine are all gulpers. I swear I don’t think they chew anything other than raw carrots that I give them as treats. Most everything else they are like vacuum cleaners. As Bobby dog said don’t give weight bearing bones. You can also feed ribs…beef, pork, whatever.

I feed my girls commercial raw foods for most of their two meals a day. I add different other ingredients to their meals and they get organic fruits and veggies. I hardly ever cook for my husband and myself so I can’t see myself whipping up meals for my dogs. I’m a believer that raw food is best for my dogs. I have seen a world of difference in these three since I switched to raw three years ago. I don’t feed the prey model because I couldn’t possibly hand over a whole animal or whatever and watch them eat it. I haven’t got the stomach for it I guess. No doubt, they’d be fine with it maybe but I wouldn’t be. I’m quite OCD about my three little girls (some would say neurotic…I’m proud of that) health be it physical or nutritionally. So I hear your concerns. I should also mention that I rotate their foods between different brands and within those brands. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities so no fowl of any sort. I feed them twice a day and I also rotate with each meal. I’ve been doing this with them for a long time so they have no issues eating different foods for different meals. It did take about 3 or 4 months I think before I was able to do that though. I hope anything I’ve said has helped and I think Bobby dog has given you some great advice as she always does.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Dori.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Thank thank you for your input.
My girls esp miss Millie are gulpers-I turn around and her food is gone!!
When I first got her it took her 25 min to eat,now seconds, I had to get her a slow feed bowl.
I thank you for your input on the Turkey necks-I just don’t feel comfortable giving them to her, I am not real interested in RMB either.
If I went raw, it would be commercial raw also, Millie being a schnauzer I have to watch her fats.
She adores the orijen freeze dried-howls while I am making it-jumping dancing!!!
Do you cook the fruits and veggies or do you give your girls raw with that also.
Pepper (until her bad gastric episode) always got raw carrots for a snack, bu tI noticed they came out the same way they went in, so i cook them-i read that since they have a short digestive tract, its hard for them to process the raw veggies.
I did order some Primal raw, so i am anxious to see how millie does.
It is hard to find real commercial raw here,so ordering it is my only option & I don’t know what other companies will ship to me in Louisiana without it costing a fortune.
Thanks again Dori

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Oh 1 more thing Dori,
I too am from NYC, miss the city a lot , how about you?

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Question for Group about HK & Poo
Forgive me friends, but, I must ask Pepper has been eating THK now for a few weeks, she is now on the grain free Preference with ground turkey or ground beef & sweet potato what I have noticed is the frequency of her bathroom visits-her stool looks great it’s just that she is going quite frequently & pretty good amts
Is this a normal occurrence when one stops kibble & eats HK?
Should I be concerned??
My angel loves it, we have tried almost every variety.
Just curious if anyone who does feed or has fed THK had this same issue happen.

Thanks again & sorry for posting at the dinner hr.

[InkedMarie]

Its seems a lot of dogs poop more often on THK. About half of my dogs have.

[jakes mom]

yeah, we got a little off topic didn’t we? I asked about THK mixes because they were the only ones I’d heard of other than the SSLL. I’m new to the raw food thing. Aimee doesn’t like THK or the KBPF. I don’t know her background so I can’t say that her opinion impacts my decision either way. I bought a couple of trial packs for the cats. If they like it, great, if not, live and learn I guess. Package says it meets AAFCO guidelines. They won’t be eating it exclusively so I’m not worried about any nutritional imbalance, really.
Cheryl, my Jake loves bones. I was nervous, too, at first, but heard so much about the benefits I decided to try. So far he’s had chicken backs, turkey necks, and “scrap bones” sold for soup. I believe they were beef vertebrae by the look of them I have some pork bones in the freezer, too. Pork needs to be frozen for a few weeks to kill any parasites. I always supervise him when he has a bone to be on the safe side but have had no problems. My understanding is that raw bones are safe, it’s the cooked ones that splinter and cause trouble.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

InkedMarie,
Thank you, I was concerned ,she is not well & being 11, I just wanted too make sure this is something that happens when eating THK.
jakesmom,
If pepper & millie are examples they ADORE THK-THEY KEEP LICKING THE BOWL till it shines.
My Pepper is completely blind, so i can understand her licking, but Millie ,my new puppy does it cause she thinks I will give her more food.
I don’t understand why Aimee said it’s not met the AAFCO standards, I cannot imagine a company saying it does and lying about it-it’s reputation would go down the drain.
Honestly, at this point in Pepper’s life-she likes it, she is able to keep it down her poo is good, what more can I ask for!!

[Kristin C]

Jakes Mom – I’d like to hear back if you like KBPF. I’m thinking about ordering some of Better In The Raw. At least it has some real food ingredients in it.

Cheryl-I ordered some a Primal too today! Going to try the Sardine grind instead of buying so many sardine cans.

Dori-Have you tried Steve’s Real Food for Dogs? The prices look somewhat reasonable.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I’ve been in Atlanta for 13 years now and still consider NYC home. I sometimes feel like I went on vacation and couldn’t find my way back home. lol We left the North East because we were so sick and tired of the cold weather. Well, I just took a look at the thermometer on my patio while I was out with my three girls and it is 17 degrees. I don’t know kind of global warming this is suppose to be but it’s had the opposite effect in Atlanta.

On cooking the veggies. If I’ve cooked veggies for our dinner then I’ll give them some cooked. Fruits I give raw. Most of the time I give the girls the fruits and veggies raw because I don’t give them for their nutritional value I give them to the girls as treats. I don’t feed any commercial treats whatsoever. Too many recalls with too many treats. I don’t give bones as I said, I certainly would never give them raw hide stuff, most commercial treats include some sort of grain or gluten and I feed grain free. So I give fruits and veggies and don’t have any concern whether they come out the same way that they went in. They’re happy chomping on what they think are treats and I feel it’s better than taking a chance on store bought treats. As to fruits and veggies, it’s also what happens to be in the fridge or on the counter. They love little bits of bananas so if I’m eating a banana I share it with them. Mostly me, little for them.

As to THK and more pooping, my three dogs did initially poop more often at the beginning and then eventually it tapered off and now they only go twice a day regardless of what they’ve been fed. Initially on THK their poops were pretty big too compared to their raw foods but then that went back to normal size also. My girls love THK and also lick their bowls clean to the point that they shine. Glad your girls like it too. It always makes me happy to feed them foods that not only do they love, but do so well on.

Kristin C. I tried Steve’s Real Food for Dogs once and I didn’t care for it. I didn’t like the consistency. I also didn’t care much for what was coming out of them either and they very rarely if ever have loose stools so that was another issue. It’s been a long time since I fed it and eventually gave the rest of the food away. I used to be big on trying different brands and seeing how the girls did. I now have a pretty big variety that they eat with no issues at all but as we went through the trial and error period my local shelter adored me. I was over there all the time dropping food off. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities, intolerances and a couple of out and out allergies so the process took me quite a while. That’s actually what led me to feed commercial raw. As long as I always remember to check all ingredients (companies do from time to time decide to make some formula change), Katie no longer has any food issues.

[Dori]

I just placed an order for both the trial sizes of KBPF Better in the Raw with liver and U-Stew for dogs. Thought I’d give it a try as I’d never heard of it before. When it arrives and I use it I’ll post the outcome. Has anyone else actually used this yet? If so, how’d it go? Read their site thoroughly. Seems easy enough to do and try.

[Kristin C]

Hi Dori – Thank you. One of my dog’s is sensitive so think I am going to pass on the Steve’s for now. I have some Primal beef coming to try. I’ll be interested to know how Better In The Raw goes for you. It has real food in it so it interests me.

It’s 0 degrees here in CT! The dog’s get a little nutso on these days when I’d rather not be outside. My beagle/Aussie has gone from slug to supercharged in the last year since changing her diet so it can be a challenge with the weather.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Please let me know how the girls do on KBPF-I ALMOST placed an order for the trial sizes, but my head is spinning from what I already have in the bullpen for Millie.
The next free-dried i have for her is the Oracle grain-free, still waiting for the Primal Raw.
I,too was loved by the shelter, all the foods I tried for pepper & poor thing couldn’t tolerate any.
Thanks for the heads up with the fruits and veggies -I only feed 1 type of treat its called Cocotherapy-freeze dried fruits or veggies they are very costly & the bags are very empty for $9.95 a bag, I don’t use any commercial bones either.
When I first got Pepper & didn’t know anything I bought her Greenies for her dental issues-my angel got so sick on them, I swore I would never again buy anything like that!!
I have been in Louisiana 34 yrs-all my adult life, but they still call me a yankee and I am proud of that,never lost my accent as I am told!! I go home & they ask me where I am from!!! Go figure.
Do you have any suggestions on what I can use to clean Millie’s ear she has some wax & I think it bothers her-she shakes her head sometimes,no smell, I thought vinegar or hydrogen peroxide , but this healthy dog Handbook says both are no-no’s=the book says o use a commercial product, I always try to stat away from them, but if you have a particular product that works, I would appreciate the info.
Fondly,
Cheryl

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I will definitely report back once I’ve received and tried the KBPF. How long have your dogs been on grain free and now on freeze dried raw foods. All three of my dogs suffered from wax, yucky ears. Never smelled or anything like that but they were yeasty brownish and gunky. Sometimes they would shake their heads but mostly they were always scratching their ears. None of them had ear infections because I had them all checked out. I had to clean all of their ears every day to try to keep up with it. Once I removed all grains, soy, corn, rice and all poultry (fowl) from their diets their ears cleared up within a matter of weeks on their own. Now that they are on raw foods none of those issues have ever returned. Another thing I did was switch shampoos. I had always been told that if you had a talk with allergies you should use an oat meal shampoo. Well, that is really very wrong. Oatmeal may be soothing to humans but if you are allergic to grains, oatmeal being one of them, you cannot bath your dogs with oatmeal shampoos. I didn’t know any better at the time. Poor Katie. I was constantly bathing her with oatmeal based shampoos because of all of her allergies. Along with her food intolerances and sensitivities she also has environmental allergies. I couldn’t figure out why nothing was working until a light bulb went on over my head and I thought….DUH????? So I switched and she’s all good. It’s been a while since I had to use any particular ear cleaner now I just make sure to put cotton balls in their ears for bathing and then dry them out after bathing. The one ear cleaner called Clean Ear by 21st Century for Pet Health cleans & dissolves was build up. That one worked pretty well actually. You just squirt a little in their ears, massage it in, then they’ll shake their heads and then I would dry out their ears. You have to do it on a regular basis until their new diets kick in and it stops happening. I haven’t had to use it in years but I’m sure it must still be around. There are other over the counter products like that also of course that would work the same way.

[aimee]

Hi Cheryl,

In regards to vet diets.. I think there are diets marketed for reasons that are questionable at best and on the other hand see that there are veterinary diets that really fulfill a need.

In regards to the ingredients in the vet diets, I don’t vilify ingredients. I look at each ingredient as to what it brings to the table. I don’t know if you have stumbled upon “Dog Talk” podcasts. I’ve listened to a lot of them by a boarded nutritionist Sean Delaney. You can find them here : http://www.radiopetlady.com/archives-pet-food-advisors.htm Listen to the one dated 5- 9-2013 as it pertains to the “ingredient” issue. The host questions Dr Delaney in regards to the ingredients used in a kidney diet. I found it very interesting.

Do the vet diets have ingredients in them that are dangerous. None that I’d be concerned about. I just don’t get all that hyped up about things that others do. After researching in peer reviewed papers in Pub Med I find that my fears are quelled after looking at data. If someone doesn’t want to feed a particular ingredient for whatever reason than they shouldn’t. You have to do what you are comfortable with.

To those that commented on “kickbacks” Perhaps this is an issue with how we define kickback. If a person receives a benefit contingent upon a contract/ sale that he/she arranged between two parties and is not one of the two parties in the contract/sale I see that as a kickback. When a vet buys a diet from a company, marks it up and sells it, that’s normal business. The vet gives money to Hills…the client gives money to the vet. Hills doesn’t give money to the vet.

In The Honest Kitchen program the vet recommends the diet and is given a coupon code to give to the client. The client goes to the site and enters into a contract with Honest Kitchen and enters the coupon number identifying who sent them to the THK site. Honest Kitchen then gives a benefit to the vet which was contingent upon the contract between THK and the client. That’s a kickback!

The other kickback program I’m aware of is Chewy dot com. The vet recommends a diet to the client and recommends that they get it through Chewy. The client goes to chewy website and orders the diet and puts his vets name down as the prescribing vet. Chewy sends a fax to the vet and the vet signs it. Chewy then pays the vet for the script. That’s a kickback.

Hill’s sponsors a seminar, it is free for vets to attend. Does that meet the criteria of kickback? No.. because attendance to the seminar is not contingent upon any arranged contracts between Hills and the client. Attendance isn’t even contingent between any contract between Hills and the vet. Hill’s want vets to come to a seminar so that they can hopefully sway the vets to choose to use their products over a competitors. It is marketing by Hills.

Trips?? Maybe as a contest… win a trip to a vet conference for example. But then again entering the contest isn’t contingent on a contract between client and a company. In fact I think there are even laws that say a contest has to be open to all such that a vet who has never even purchased a product from the company offering the contest can participate.

In regards to vets selling food they buy it mark it up and sell it just as a pet store would or Chewy does or whatever. A vet may carry a particular food because he/she truly thinks it is best and wants to make it available. They may carry it because they want the client to visit the practice every 3-4 weeks to build “good will” between the client and the practice and they may carry it as another income source to support the practice.

Of those three I think income source comes in dead last. I’m saying this as a person whose sister is an accountant who has had vet practices as clients.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
They have never had a grain inclusive diet-always fed Pepper grain free.Millie too
Believe me I am so nuts, I see a little wax I go crazy.
Millie is the puppy and she is on the freeze dried raw & then the commercial raw.
Pepper the 11 1/2 y.o. is on the HK with cooked meats or turkey.
I am to much of a scared cat to put pepper on freeze dried or actual commercial raw due to its high fat content-I just think her system couldn’t handle the high fat-She is the 1 with IBD/IBS gastritis issues.
They have never had an oatmeal based shampoo either.
Schnauzers are known to be highly allergic to a great many things. When I first got Pepper 3 yrs ago ,I would cure 1 thing and then a noter thing would pop up.
Thanks for the info.
The girls are driving me crazy no walks today 20 degrees its just warmed up to 30 pepper hasn’t stopped walking around crying.
Stay warm

[aimee]

Kristen,

I ‘ll give you a bit on my background as it buried in numerous posts I’ve posted over the years. I have a strong background in science, hundreds of credit hours. I started out as a biology /biochem double major. Didn’t finish the degree… married my prof and became a mom. But as a wife of a prof I now could take classes for free, and I’ve taken a lot of classes! As part of my education I have taken a class which covered feed formulation for large animal, many many hours evaluating diets primarily for cattle and hog production as problem based class work. It was all very “mathey” and all hand calculations so I have a basic understanding of how to do nutritional calculations it isn’t hard to do … just time consuming.

Because of my background when I evaluate a company or product I look at the nutritional numbers posts and see if they “add up”.

The reason I said so far only balance it makes sense to me is because of the precision of the feed recommendations. I think the amount of supplement should vary depending on ingredient use. Use as much as needed and no more. Keeps costs down. Also specific vegetable fat recommendations are given which vary depending on meat source to meet linoleic needs as they should.

When I looked at the KBPF supplement I see that the nutritional information posted doesn’t meet AAFCO. I found it odd that though they post a decent amount of information there is nothing about linoleic acid. I would not be at all surprised to find that the diets as made are deficient. The company doesn’t have recommendation for vegetable oils and I doubt that there is enough dried egg in the product to meet needs. There is no break down of the nutrient profile of the supplement.

See Spot Live longer does a little better job… but vague instructions like add up to 20% whole food by volume… really turn me off. Nutritionists never balance by volume way too much variation. Huge difference to a nutrient profile/calories if you add 20% liver by volume vs 20 % green beans vs 20% chickpeas. It is all very odd.

The “synthetics” in balance it don’t bother me, perhaps because of my nutritional background. The NRC tables are based on highly bioavailable “synthetics” and the user of such tables is cautioned of a need to convert if using natural sources whose bioavailability may be poor. Even SSLL acknowledges the need for synthetics. I have to wonder if the dried spinach in SSLL isn’t somewhat of a filler window dressing. People like to see natural ingredients so marketers will oblige them.

Cheryl,

It doesn’t surprise me that all the recipes from balance it come up with deficiencies unless supplement is added as the recipes are based on just a few ingredients. It isn’t a “ploy” to get you to buy their supplement. Recipes are free when using their supplement but you can purchase recipes that use common supplements to balance them.

Is balance it perfect? I think it is good at what it is, but may not meet all peoples needs.
I’ve never used the supplements myself as majority of calories my dogs eat are from commercial foods.

[Kristin C]

Ok Aimee, take all the classes that you want but I don’t give my dog’s cattle or hog feed so now I know I don’t need to read your posts anymore. They are exhausting, like dealing with my narcissistic ex-sister-in-law. The information you provide and your approach is not supportive, but that’s just my opinion. If I was newer at this raw feeding thing, and completely unsure of what I was doing, you’d definitely scare me away from it.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Aimee,
You will have to give me a few days to digest all that you posted, some comments I am still shaking my head about.
You are an intelligent well read well researched person, yet some comments just don’t make sense.
I am so curious (yet it isn’t my business) to know why you have such an axe to grind with the Honest Kitchen, yet vet diets are o.k.
You don’t think offering vet clinics trips kickbacks?? Where I come from that is a kickback, plain & simple.
Food isn’t an income source, its a WINDFALL to a vet practice its a cha-ching, do you think posters here are the average pet parent? Let me tell you they are not. you know that, you take the time to answer & help people, yet you think the veterinary profession is above reproach. If I am making wrong assumptions, I am sorry. Your sister’s clients may be the exception, but, they may be also better at hiding money & telling your sister only what they want her to know. Sorry if that sounds harsh. You may call me bitter & yes you would be correct-those incompetent **** BLED YES BLED ME,because they saw how much I loved my angel & that I would try to move heaven & earth to save her-Aimee how would you like to be told your fur kid had cancer only to be told by the head of the reproduction dept @ LSU Veterinary School she had her period!!!!! I didn’t know wether to laugh or cry, I called the idiot & told him he needs to go back to school !! I could go on & on, I have no respect for any of them. It’s money money money plain & simple! Yes there are some god vets, but those are rare, I have found only one & he is getting ready to retire
Don’t you think it’s easier to take what these vets say buy the crap pour it in the dish & not even look at the ingredients? People on this site spend hrs, days ,weeks searching for alternatives.
It’s the same with us people get a script from the dr. & on your way, don’t exercise don’t change the way you eat, just take a pill.
I will continue this but the fur-kids want to eat, I must comply

[Dori]

Cheryl and Kristin. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I agree with every single thing you have both said. It is plain and simple common sense. Throughout my life I have incurred many people that because of their science background (or their spouses) and all the classes they have taken forget that everything is not about the science. We do not live in olden times where if a doctor said something it was manna from heaven. We are modern people living in modern times and know that doctors, as anyone, make mistakes or don’t keep on with modern thinking. It’s common sense. How on earth would anyone who does not only hours and weeks of research, but years and also on going believe that a diet full of corn, fillers, and, excuse me everyone, but crap be good for your animals. Sure, eat it for a little while and it’s not going to kill them. Will they survive, maybe yes maybe no. I do know that you will spend 1/3 of the year taking your dogs back and forth to the vet to the detriment of your animal and your wallet. Your dogs will be put on antibiotics and all sorts of other drugs attempting to combat all the ills that these awful inappropriate feeds have done to your dogs. They will not thrive. All in the name of science. I sadly came to realize years ago that the majority of people have not a lick of common sense. If science is telling you one thing about a dog feed but you can witness with your eyes what it is doing to your dog, what do you believe? The science or what is right in front of your eyes? If you are feeding a quality dog FOOD (not feed), and your dog is thriving, skin great, hair or fur nice and shinny, great breath, no gas, good stools, not yeasty ears, no bladder, kidney, liver issues, no more scratching, etc. etc. will you continue to believe what scientist are telling you or, once again, will you believe what you are witnessing with your very own eyes. Scientists, like a lot of doctors, believe that they are “all that”. They are not. They are no where near being “all that”! They do have enormous egos. Anyway, these are just my opinions and my experiences with, unfortunately, having had dogs on crappy foods (when I was young and didn’t know any better) and now.

[aimee]

Dori,

I ‘ll be happy to discuss THK or anything I post about. I agree with you that their customer service is very responsive but CS hands are tied by the overall lack of nutritional knowledge of the company as a whole.

I think I covered the “kickback” thing. Marking up a product isn’t a kickback. Income stream from selling foods in a vet hospital EH… minor at best… It isn’t worth a vet’s time to sell pet food, his/her time is better spent in the surgery room! Considering the small volume of food sold and taking into account overhead and theft it is likely a bit of a wash. Someplace on Dr. Wynn’s vet blog she addressed this topic as her accountant said stop selling therapeutic diets, it is too much of an income drain!!

Sure vets get volume discounts on food as does anyplace buying the diets but again that isn’t a “kickback” and the volume they deal with in general is so small compared to a large retailer. If vet offices sell food I don’t see it as primarily income related I see it as providing a product they have had success with and trying to increase client contact. If they break even woo hoo!

Ok.. Why I wouldn’t currently recommend THK. On its most basic level I expect a diet when fed as directed to meet my dog’s nutritional needs. I first looked at THK when a poster posted about all the “sticks” in the product. I looked at the profile for the product she was posting about, Preference, and using the information they posted and their feeding directions I ran calculations. When fed to my dog Preference didn’t meet NRC rec or AAFCO min recommended amounts. This alarmed me!

In fact I immediately contacted THK, especially as Preference was being marketed on their website as being appropriate for feeding puppies!. To their credit after I contacted them they removed the information and feeding recommendations for puppies from their website within days. BUT why did it take someone with minimal nutritional training ( that would be me) to point out to them that their food is deficient? They acknowledged I was right by removing the puppy feeding recommendations but why still market it to adults? What about the adults eating the diet? Don’t they care about them as well?

I’ll run through a calculation with you. I’m going to feed my dog Brooke who weighs 68 lbs Preference. I’m to feed her 3/4 cup mix and 1 1/2 cups meat using their active dog recommendations.

The Vit E content of Preference is 70 IU/kg as received, Calories/kg 3510 and Cal/cup 333. From the caloric information 1 cup has .095 kgs of food and 3/4 cup is .071 kg Preference.

.071 kg of food X 70 IU/kg = 5 IU of Vit E in 3/4 cup Preference. NRC rec amt for Vit E is 1 mg/kg body weight to the 3/4 power. Brooke is 68 lbs = ~31kg. To calculate bw to the 3/4 power multiple bw three times and square root twice. 31X 31X 31= 29,791, take the square root twice = 13. Brooke’s body weight in kg to the 3/4 power is 13 and NRC rec Vit E is 13 mg Vit E of the alpha tocopherol form.

Now we have to convert IU vit E to mg vit E (alpha tocopherol) which is what NRC uses. The accepted conversion factor I found is 1 IU vit E = .45 mg alpha tocopherol So 5 IU Vit E x .45 mg/IU = 2.25 mg alpha tocopherol supplied by Preference. The Vit E content of the added 1 and 1/2 cup 85% lean ground beef is .58 mg Vit E from the USDA nutrient database, I’m estimating 1.5 cups as 12 oz. 0.58 mg from meat plus 2.25 mg from the mix = total Vit E fed 2.84 mg. Preference provided about 20% the NRC recommended daily amount of Vit E. This is why I don’t recommend Preference, it doesn’t meet needs.

I’ll compare Preference to AAFCO on an energy basis. AAFCO rec Vit E is 50 IU/kg and a kg of food is defined as 3,500 kcals 50 IU/3,500kcals x 1000 = 14.2 IU/1000 kcals.

I was recommended to feed 3/4 cup Preference which gave me 5 IU Vit E and 250 kcals and 1 1/2 cup meat. 1.5 cups 85% ground beef from USDA database approx 731 kcals and .58 mg alpha tocopherol. I convert mgs Vit E from the beef to IU and I get~ 1.3 IU Total Vit E fed 6.3 IU and total calories 981 kcals 6.3IU/981 kcals x 1000 = 6 .4 IU/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min is 14.2 IU/1000kcals so Preference provides less than half the min AAFCO Vit E requirement according to their posted nutritional information.

Dori, I hope you can now see that using the information provided by THK and adding meat to the pre mix it does not meet either AAFCO or the NRC recommended min levels for Vit E.

Now let’s look at their complete diets, are they complete and balanced? Go to their site and pull up the nutritional information for Keen. The posted content of Vit E is 23.45 mg/kg DM and their posted arginine content is 0.06% DM. Compare that to AAFCO. AAFCO min Vit E content for maint is 50 IU/kg DM and arginine AAFCO min is .51% DM. It really is as simple as that…. 23.45 IU/kg is less than AAFCO requirement of 50 IU/kg and 0.06 % is far far less than .51%. But consider that KEEN caloric content is reported as 4524/kg and AAFCO requires any diet over 4000 kcals/kg to be corrected. The correction is simple 4524/3500 x 50 = 64.6 IU/kg. A diet with KEEN’s caloric density requires 64.6 IU Vit E/kg and THK says there is 23.45 IU/kg. The company reports that their diet has only 36% the amount that AAFCO requires. THK is saying that their diet is not “complete and balanced” b AACo nutrient profile.

Diet after diet, nutrient after nutrient the information that THK posts doesn’t meet AAFCO

Have I reported them? The company on one hand says it is complete and balanced and on the other says it is not. For a feed control official to take action I think a nutrient analysis would need to be done to settle the question and a full analysis can cost thousands. I don’t have that kind of money to donate to the cause. I asked THK if their nutritional analysis are accurate and they said they are. I asked how they can say their diet are complete and balanced. They say they are. Both statements can not be true. Either the nutritional information is wrong or some diets are not complete and balanced. I don’t know which is true. The company said it didn’t have time to investigate it, but would get back to me. It has been over 6 months…Is that good customer service?? I’ve been waiting over 6 months for the company to answer as to how it can say their diets are complete and balanced when the information they post does not meet AAFCO.

I found a similar situation with Grandma Lucy’s, they say the diet is complete and balanced but they report that the Phos max is .45% which is below AAFCO min. I did report Grandma Lucy’s to the feed control official. Grandma Lucy’s printed their nutritional information on the package in their guaranteed analysis so the feed control official didn’t need to run an analysis. The food is misbranded: the label can’t say that it meets AAFCO while guaranteeing that the food is below AAFCO. So the official in my state placed a stop sale order on Grandma Lucy’s. Does that mean it isn’t being sold? Of course not!! The feed control official can’t be there 24 /7 in every little boutique that chooses to violate the law. Does the company care? They gave me the same line as THK; Our diets are complete and balanced. I’ve been waiting over 9 months for them to tell me actual Phos level in their foods.They said they should have the information sometime in 2015

People tend to buy food on an emotional basis. THK is very good at appealing to emotions: “human grade”, “whole food”, “non GMO” etc. They excel in it… I’m analytical.. I like numbers and data. I like things to be consistent and this company is full of inconsistencies. They say the food is “never cooked”…. but they “heat” to high temps. How is that not cooked? I asked THK but they wouldn’t answer. It isn’t raw… yet their phone number is “4 dry raw” and Lucy Postins says right on the video that it is raw. If you use their as received nutrient data the DM protein content is 21.85% for Keen but if you use their as served data it is 40% protein DM basis. They say the diet is highly digestible but expect your dog to poop three to five times a day. That’s normal… Really?? Normal for your dog to poop 3-5 times a day with undigested whole hunks of celery and sweet potato and alfalfa in it? They haven’t ever done any type of digestibility trials, how do they know it is highly digestible… they told me they know it is because raw foods are highly digestible… but wait… they told me their food isn’t raw. Do they have a nutritionist Nope… have they ever had a nutritionist review their diets? Nope. Since the company doesn’t use any nutritionists does it surprise me that their diets wouldn’t be balanced and they can’t do simple nutritional calculations… Nope

I see this company as a marketing company. They appeal to people who evaluate foods on an emotional basis only which is pretty much everybody! They say it is not cooked to appeal to raw feeders and they say it is heat processed to appeal to those that don’t like raw. How can it be both?? According to the nutritional information the company posts and depending on the diet their diets may not meet the most basic thing that a food should, which is meet the nutritional needs of the pet. As long as you don’t feed it consistently it should be fine. But why pay a premium price a food that comes out as it goes in? And why support a company that promotes feeding unbalanced diets to pets ?

Dori I hope this explains to you why I can’t currently recommend this company.

[Kristin C]

Hey Everyone – Maybe we should get a Dog Food Advisor Skype meeting going. Monthly? Quarterly? Because then we can look at each other when we speak.

Aimee-everyone isn’t the science girl or guy. You say you feed your dog(s) commercial what? You have not identified that, you double science major that ?never graduated and wife of the professor/mom. I’m sorry Aimee your post are so ridiculous I nod off.

[Bobby dog]

I think I’ll pass on that Kristin I like to keep conversation a little more light hearted.

[Kristin C]

No prob Bobby dog. I prefer light, sharing, and supportive for everyone.

[aimee]

Kristin,

You asked what my background was so I told you. I don’t give my dogs cattle or hog feed either LOL and I agree in my effort to explain I get too wordy. I don’t understand what you mean by this “The information you provide and your approach is not supportive” but that is ok.

I do advocate for meeting a dog’s nutritional needs when feeding them.

Edit:Currently Brooke is on Annamaet Lean as her base but she has been on it about 8 weeks and her coat is looking dull. I’ll prob rotate back to Purina Pro Plan weight management. I’ve also used Wellness Core reduced fat and EVO weight management too. She maintains the best coat on Purina. For toppers I add fresh and sometime commercial. Currently I have Primal raw, Stella and Chewy freeze dried and Pro Plan canned in the house.

For Jack, the crested in my pic he eats RC venison and potato, as his base along some Hill’s V and P canned with fresh and some Primal and some Stella and Chewy venison. He’s the reason those brands are in the house: ).

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by aimee.

[Bobby dog]

Aimee, you married your Professor, oh my. lol

[Kristin C]

Hi Aimee-I understand that you have a background in the field just by your posts. What I mean by your “approach” is that maybe you can tone it down cause the newbies could get scared off. If you scan this forum it’s a lot of people who just want to do right by their pups, and that’s putting it mildly. People come here looking for answers to their concerns, and some are pretty serious (not just questions on dinner mixes). I found this forum after having a pretty solid dog who has a rock solid stomach but she had a mast cell tumor on her face as a puppy. I got another puppy who couldn’t keep kibble down and was just absolutely wilting and it shocked me.

I believe, from all I’ve read, it’s pretty grey on what to feed. One size does not fit all and I have worked super hard on variety for my fur-girls, as I am sure many others have in their own research. My dogs are thriving. I don’t have kids, unfortunately, but I’m sure I would be just as diligent, if not more diligent, in my efforts to feed them as I’m sure you are with your kids.

Aimee, just don’t steamroll EVERYTHING is all I am saying. Different diets may work for different dogs. Sorry to Jakes Mom for her post taking this turn:( Have a good night.

[aimee]

Bobby LOL Yes.. I did. Truth be told I always dated the teachers/student teachers… even in high school. Which meant I never went to prom LOL. In college not as big as deal. The dept chair just said to be discrete.

Still remember the first kiss… We were talking about his current girlfriend who was pressuring him to marry her. He said she was a wonderful woman but knew she wasn’t “the one”. She was brilliant. I’d met her. She was my age and had already finished her PhD. I said something like he really needs to do what in his heart he knew to be the right thing to do. And he leaned over and said “This is what I know is the right thing to do” and kissed me. When he leaned over he knocked a glass jar full of fruit flys off the counter, which landed on the floor and crashed. We were in the genetics lab.

Now at the time of this “first kiss” I was engaged to a pastor of a church who lived a few states away. So the crash was a good “jar” back to reality for him as I was quite a bit startled by his “move”. He broke up with his GF and about 4 weeks later he asked me to marry him.. again in the genetics lab surrounded by fruit fly cultures. Very Romantic! He said he knew I was engaged but he never wanted to look back on his life and wonder “What if” so he was asking. That same day i got home from school and my betrothed had sent me a letter saying God was leading him in a different direction and that he had started dating someone else. Eventually, I started dating hubby to be and I think it was the fifth time he proposed that I said yes. My pastor Bf and I are still friends.. he is coming to visit in a few weeks. : )

So their you have it… TMI and now really off topic!

[aimee]

Kristin,

I believe dogs are quite flexible and do well on a variety of nutritional approaches so I agree there isn’t one right way. What is most important to me is the the dog’s needs are met.

So when I read of cases like the Sheltie pup who was raised on pre mix and raw and suffered severe nutritional disease it concerns me. Do companies know what they are doing? I don’t know that they do….

My second dog has Mast Cell disease . I hope your dog does well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef

[Akari_32]

Aimee, is there a way of knowing what pre-mix it was that the dog was fed? This has been something that concerns me with Bentleys such strict no-to-very-low carb needs and the fact that SSLL is the only affordable mix that meets his needs. I so wish I could find at least one other to rotate with, or be able to do complete raw, but cost and local availability do not allow me to do that on both fronts.

At least I have no problems with THK– Bentley doesn’t like it LOL Haley and Dweezle are currently getting less than a cup mixed between them in their kibble most nights though. I have a box that I forgot about that expires in February. Whoops! LOL

It’s interesting you say how well your one dog does on Pro Plan. I’ve used it several times in the past (coupons, you know lol) and I also can’t deny the results I see with Haley and Dweezle. However, it’s not something I use often because A) it’s Purina and I’m really not a huge fan, despite how it may seem, and B) Haley drops weight like she hasn’t eaten in months on foods with too much corn in them, and she drops it fast, so I have to pay attention to which ones I buy. It’s easer for me to just not buy it (at least not in bulk). Takes away the guess work lol

[Kristin C]

I am only replying so I can get off this post. And I think I’ll get my information elsewhere moving forward. If Aimee’s posts are considered friendly and calm we must be reading different ones. The ones I seem to read are ranting, somewhat heated and critical with occasional sarcasm. I prefer to get my information from more emotionally intelligent sources.

[Dori]

Kristin C. Once again I agree with you and will not be posting on this thread after this one. THK that I feed is not a dinner mix, it’s one of their protein inclusive foods. I see no discernible ingredients in the food since they removed the alfalfa. I see nothing in my three dogs stools that I can identify as any particular ingredient. But I never saw any in the poops when it included the alfalfa. I only stopped feeding Zeal until the removal of alfalfa occurred because Katie has issues with alfalfa sometimes. It’s a food in my rotation (Zeal). The three love the food and all three of my dogs are thriving with all the foods I feed. Since I don’t feed their dinner mixes I suppose I should not have commented on this thread to begin with. Hope to meet up with you again on a different thread. It’s been a pleasure. 🙂

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori & KristenC
I am so sorry this thread took a turn like this-esp since I just recently started posting again (unfortunately this is exactly why I took a long break from posting on this site-happened before)
I too, feed the complete mixes and the grain-free base mixes yes only for a few weeks, but believe me if any fur-kid would have visible food coming out,it would be pepper, & so far, I agree with you Dori thank god I see nothing-I am amazed.Not to repeat myself ,but, pepper loves the food.
I probably will only offer it to Millie as a topper since she is a puppy.
I,too hope we can all chat on another thread.
I just got the Primal Raw-HELP, I got the surgical gloves out, should I feed Millie in a different bowl then she gets her other food?? Please tell me what thread to find you gals on! how do I introduce it to millie-so many questions so much stress 🙁

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

KristenC,
I am in but then I will have to do my hair & makeup & a nice shirt-not to mention figure out how to SKYPE!!!

[jakes mom]

Well I hesitate to post anything else here but I just got the KBPF and thought I’d list the ingredients for anyone who’s interested. It’s been a bad weather week in Ohio, lots of long commutes and snow shoveling and below zero temps so I have not had a chance to buy any meat to make the mixes. I have a few days off next week so will give it a shot then.
For the Better in the Raw mix: egg yolk, calcium lactate, beef liver powder, gelatin, whey protein, psyllium husks, EFA from fish oil, taurine, kelp, barley grass, Vitamin E succinate, Vitamin B complex.
Nutritional info based on “as fed” mixed food using ground chicken (average daily meal size 1/4 lb) :
energy 133 kcal
protein 17.29%
carb 1.2%
fat 6.0%
ash 3.19%
calcium 231 mg
phos 74 mg
mg 74 mg
sodium 144 mg
Potassium 201 mg
The U-stew mix for cooked meat has the same ingredients as above plus digestive enzymes.
The company suggests turkey, chicken, beef, venison, lamb or pork with 20% or less fat content.

[aimee]

Hi Jakes Mom,

Here is the breakdown of the meal using the nutritional information you posted and compared to AAFCO

KBPF Ca 1.73 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main 1.68 grs/1000 kcals growth 2.8 grs 1000/kcal
Ph 0.55 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main. 1.4 grs/1000kcals growth 2.24 gr/1000kcal
Mg 0.55 grs/1000kcal AAFCO min main .11grm/1000kcals growth .11 grm/1000kcals
Na 1.08grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main .168 grm/1000kcals growth .84grm/1000kcals
K 1.5 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main 1.68 grms/1000kcalsgrowth1.68grms/1000kcals

Using the information posted, the diet when compared to AAFCO is deficient for Phos and Potassium for maintenance; compared to AAFCO growth profile it is deficient in Calcium Phos and Potassium.

I question the reported Phos level as being incorrect.

Sadly this company markets their products as meeting a puppies needs when it doesn’t even meet an adults needs. Calcium levels this low will likely cause developmental bone abnormalities.

[Author]

Posts