[Allison A]

I have a 4-year-old, 65-lb English Pointer who has always had very loose, unformed stools (applesauce or unset pudding), regardless of the food or supplements I have given him. He has a clean bill of health, and no medical reason for the loose stools that the vet has been able to find. He does have formed (still soft) stools on Hills Adult Light, which has a 13% fiber content. The vet thinks he is fiber responsive since the high fiber food gives his stool some consistency. I hate feeding him Hills; all my previous dogs have done great on 5-star foods. He is an “ears and rears” dog, and both seem to bug him when he eats the Hills. Currently, he’s getting half Hills and half Orijen Regional Red with a couple Primal freeze-dried nuggets (lamb) and a hard-boiled egg on top. I think the Primal freeze-dried actually firms up his stool a bit. I can’t afford to feed him freeze-dried exclusively.

The freeze-dried contains ground bone, and I am wondering if that is what helps. It’s a minor improvement, as I’m only topping his kibble with these nuggets, but there is a slight difference (mashed banana consistency). Any thoughts on giving him supplemental bone meal? There are human grade options on Amazon, and several reviewers mention it firming up their dog’s stool.

All ideas are welcomed. Below is a list of things we have tried, and that have failed.
– Limited ingredient diets – fish-based (Merrick, Natural Balance)
– Oat bran
– Canned pumpkin
– Diggin’ Your Dog (dried pumpkin fiber powder)
– Yogurt
– Probiotics
– Ground flaxseed (Missing Link supplement)
– Psyllium (aka: Metamucil)

[Anonymous]

Have you consulted an Internal Medicine Specialist? If you haven’t, I would.
Food and supplements are not medication or treatment.
PS: In my experience, less is better when you are dealing with a dog with a sensitive stomach.
No supplements. No OTC gobbledygook. Keep it simple.

[Susan]

Hi was your dog tested for EPI & have you ever used a Digestive Enzyme? when I reed what you have used I see pumkin & the pumkin didn’t help …..Pumkin is high soluble fiber, what % fiber is the Hills light kibble made up of more soluble fiber or more insoluble fiber, email Hills & ask you want the % of the soluble, insoluble & crude fiber in the Light, but were his poos ever firm on the Hills light??? the Hills Z/d vet diet is high in insoluble fiber, it went thru my boy, so my boy needs a kibble & foods that have soluble fibers, not insoluble fibers, my boy did real well on the vet diet Euknauba Intestinal low residue kibble, the fiber is only 1.7% & the Royal Canine Intestinal low fat the fiber is 1.7%
another thing if he’s doing better on the raw, raw doesn’t have much fiber so ur vet may have it wrong, have you seen any other vets that specialise in IBD, I can try & work it out with you….I think ur dog need less fiber…..

[Allison A]

He has not been tested for EPI, nor have I given him enzymes. I can contact Hills, but based on the ingredients list, the majority of the ingredients that contribute to the fiber content are insoluble (wheat, corn, etc.). His poops are not great with Hills Light, but that has been BY FAR the most successful food for him. He probably poops 5-8 times a day. First thing in the morning, the stool is formed. After that, it gets softer and softer with each subsequent BM. On any food other than the Hills, his stool is just straight liquid.

I am trying to get him off the Hills (chicken, wheat, corn) because his ears and bum are clearly bothering him. Both of those issues have gotten exponentially worse in the last two weeks with the incorporation of the Orijen (he’s getting half Hills, half Orijen Red). It hardly makes sense!

He has never had a full raw meal, only a couple freeze-dried nuggets (Primal brand) on top of his kibble. Because of that, I can’t say that going raw is the definite solution for him, but I am investigating how to go about that in a way I can afford. The commercially available frozen raw diets are going to run $400 a month, which I just can’t do. Unfortunately, I live in a very large, major US city where all meats are ridiculously expensive. We’re talking about $3/lb for the cheap stuff.

[Pitlove]

I firmly believe there is something more going on here that needs the help of a specialist. I don’t think constantly changing his food when he’s having this much GI upset is going to do anything but hurt at this point. I understand that you are bothered by the ingredients in Science Diet, I would be too, but until you are able to speak to someone who can actually diagnose the problem and then explain what kind of levels of protein, fat, fiber etc need to be in the food you feed, you probably need to stick to whatever is working the best and stay with that. Feeding those ingredients short term to minimize GI upset is really the best thing and I wouldn’t beat yourself up about it if it is making a difference.

[Allison A]

I totally agree that there has to be something underlying. Jack is a rescue and was a neglect case that the police confiscated, so there’s really no telling what his history has been. Thankfully, he’s the sweetest, happiest thing you’ve ever met. Gut-wise, he doesn’t act miserable, but something is clearly up. We’ll be making a return trip to the vet pretty quick. Even if that turns up nothing, there is a veterinary specialty practice nearby that all local vets refer the weird cases to. That crew is incredible. My previous Pointer, Tucker, started having seizures and episodes of blindness and ataxia. The canine neurologist at the specialty center diagnosed pancreatic cancer, not a brain mass. He was 100% correct, and sadly, pancreatic cancer is as deadly in dogs as it is in humans.

I find it very interesting that Jack’s itchy ears and bum have gotten so much worse with adding in some Orijen…certainly a puzzle! He was very underweight when I got him, and we slowly got him up to a healthy weight, but I wonder if he has a malabsorption issue. Food seems to just fly though his system, and he has recently become VERY determined to eat every cigarette butt we come across on walks. I have to watch him like a hawk and give a “leave it” and leash correction because I can see him thinking about it the second he spots one. Some nutrient isn’t getting in if he’s that focused on eating those.

[Susan]

Hi, I cant understand why his vet never tested for EPI & S.I.B.O, he has all the symptoms cow pattie poos, always hungry, also has he ever been put on Tylan Powder?? they are put on Metronidazole tablets for 30 days then you start them on 1/4 Tylan Powder with meals, I was putting the Tylan Powder in those empty capsules cause it taste awful & can turn some dogs off their food … a lot of vets don’t know much about EPI or S.I.B.O, a lot of poor dogs go untreated & suffer…
Please join this F/B group & ask what is the name of the blood test for EPI & ask some of the ladies if they live near you & who is their dogs vet, you will get a lot of help in the EPI group, he may just have S.I.B.O like what my boy had & just need the antibiotics Metronidazole & Tylan, most of the dogs in the Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency group eat Taste Of Wild soaked in Dianne digestive enzymes, Dianne is also in the group & will send you out some of her digestive samples….. something has to be done cause he wouldn’t be absorbing any nutrients from his food & be starving all the time, hopefully he’ll be doing firm poos soon….. https://www.facebook.com/groups/38663535025/

[Pitlove]

Glad to here you have some specialists you can reach out to. I definitely think thats the best course of action, as you will probably waste money going to the vet constantly.

What my vet told me was that, itchy ears and rear is a symptom of a food intolerance. My dog was eating a food that was beef and pork meal based at the time and would start vigorsly licking his rear right after eating. I got him off beef and it stopped. He’s been able to eat pork again without doing that. I’m thinking he could very well be intolerant to something in Orijen.

Not sure how long you have had Jack for, and I’m sure he is a bundle of joy, but do you think there could be ANY residual stress from his previous home given that he was a neglect case? Stress is known to cause GI upset as well. Maybe he’s good at hiding it aside from his messy poo’s? I’ve noticed how good dogs are at hiding pain. I was watching Animal Cops Houston this morning and they showed one of their worst cruelty cases where this German Shephard puppy had been left outside on a rusted chain for a collar which had completely imbedded itself into her neck to the point where skin was growing around it. When the officers came up to her to take her, she acted so happy you’d never know she had a chain imbedded in her neck and was probably in agonizing pain. Long story short and to get to my point, he could still have some left over pain from the rehome and the previous neglect. Not saying thats 100% what it is, but it’s something to think about.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by Pitlove.

[Allison A]

We were able to get an appointment pretty quick. The vet thinks he has chronic, fiber-responsive colitis. About a month ago, he had a bout of bloody diarrhea following a couple days of Rimadyl (he had tweaked his hip after playing a little too hard). Initially it was thought that he’s just one of those dogs whose GI tracts are sensitive to NSAIDs. After some metronidazole and Hills Prescription WD, that cleared up. He went back to loose stools after that; he had loose stools prior to that episode as well.

He will likely have to remain on WD long-term. So far, that is the only thing he has formed stool on (even when we supplemented insoluble fiber, which is what the WD contains). He is on a 10-day course of Tylan, too.

I hope at some point to be able to give half WD and half something better, or supplement with egg, liver, etc. He’s a young, active boy, and the WD is pretty low in protein.

[Susan]

Hi, its good you now know what the problems is, yes the Hills W/d is low in protein-19.2% & low in fat-8.7% & very high in insoluble fiber-28.1% crude fiber-16.4% & low in soluble fiber-1.3%
….The only other thing you could do is write down the Hills W/d kibble insoluble fiber soluble fiber, crude fiber are then email a few kibble companies & ask about their weight management kibbles & see if you can find a kibble as close to the W/d & mix some of the
weight management kibble thru with the Hills W/d to get the higher protein & better ingredients…..but wait until he’s doing firm poos & is stable on the Hills W/d first before trying anything new….
I’m mixing Earthborn Ocean Fusion Natural with Patches Royal Canine Intestinal low fat at the moment to keep his weight on…..its hard to find a premium kibble in Patches case that has low fat & is also low in fiber, the weight loss kibbles normally are low in fat but high in crude fiber that’s where you may find a weight management kibble that is close to the Hills W/d kibble, I know the Earthborn weight Control kibble has 9% crude fiber so email Earthborn & ask what is the insoluble & soluble % in their Weight Control kibble, as you have to feed the Hills W/d for the rest of his life & the ingredients aren’t that great & see what Earthborn or other kibble companies email you back then that way you will have 2 kibbles you know he can eat if anything ever happens & you can’t get the Hills W/d…. I’m running out of kibbles to try now I have maybe 2 premium kibble left to try, I’ve tried most of them but I live Australia you have more dogs in America & have a bigger range of dog food companies to choose from…

My boy has Colitis from food intolerances to certain foods & high fat foods & was pooing blood & pooing jelly poos or the poo looks like a condom on the poo, when I first rescued him I was feeding him cooked meals, kibbles & wet tin foods I didn’t know about wet tin foods being higher in fat if it say’s 5% fat that’s around 22% fat when converted to dry matter (Kibble) then he can’t eat boiled rice but he can eat the grounded rice in kibbles,
it does your head in sometimes…. you’ll have to be careful when you introduce a new food just add 1 new food at a time with his kibble for 2 weeks to make sure he’s not having a reaction to the new food like diarrhea or bloody poos jelly poos condom poos then after trying the new food for 2 weeks & if he’s right then introduce another new food, have you tried sweet potatoes..Sweet potatos are higher in insoluble fiber I found this list to copy & keep it tells you what is high in soluble & insoluble fibers http://www.healthhype.com/list-of-high-fiber-foods-soluble-and-insoluble-fiber-chart.html
Earthborn Weight Control kibble http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/dog_formulas/weight_control/ingredients.php

[Pitlove]

Allison, thats great that you finally have an answer even though it’s probably not something you wanted to hear. Susan gave you some really good info. I know shes been dealing a lot with this with her Staffy. I know the Hill’s looks terrible, but if it’s working then I think that you shouldn’t feel so bad about feeding it for now.

[Allison A]

Thank you all for the input! Susan, those are great ideas, and I will be contacting a few companies. I’m not sure yet if fat aggravates his system, so my plan is to keep him on a lower fat combination to give his gut the best chance to settle down. He does really well with eggs, though.

I was also thinking that maybe instead of eventually mixing in another kibble, to add some home-cooked food to the W/D. Things like ground turkey, a little boiled liver, etc. Honestly, it might be easier (and less expensive than the super premium kibbles) than trying to find a kibble that agrees with him to add to the W/D…and there’s no risk of a product being discontinued when the supplemental food comes from meat section at the grocery store!

So far, he’s doing fantastic on the W/D. It really is amazing how fast that changes his poops from total mush to firm. He doesn’t even seem to notice the Tylan, thankfully. I’ve heard some dogs really dislike the smell and taste of it.

Any thoughts on giving the W/D a “boost” with bland, home-cooked foods? Down the road, of course, when he’s regularly…regular.

[Pitlove]

Happy to hear the W/D is working well for him. I don’t always feel rX diets are needed, but certainly in your boys situation it does show that they can really be life changing.

I’m not Susan, but I wouldn’t think there would be anything wrong with eventually adding fresh to the W/D. Obviously his body will show you fast if the fresh meats aren’t agreeing with him and then you can discontibue them or find a leaner, lower fat meat.

[Susan]

Hi, yes adding cooked food with his W/d kibble is a good idea, only add 1 food at a time, till you work out what foods he can eat & what foods don’t work in the poo department…. I was buying 1 kilo of 99% fat free turkey breast mince & scrambling 1-2 raw eggs then mixing the raw scrambled egg thru the turkey breast mince then making rissole balls, (meat loafs) & little small bite size turkey breast egg balls for treats…. I was getting 1/2 cup of the turkey breast egg mix, then I would make a round rissoles & flatten the rissole & shape the rissole like a mini meat loaf, like a snicker bar, then I put foil on a cookie tray & bake them all in the oven…. then after they were cooking for about 15mins in the oven, I’d get an egg flipper & turn all the rissoles over & there would be water stuff coming out of the rissoles, so I would tip this water out into sink so nothing burns, also I would make a few real small bite size rissole balls for treats as well, the bit size rissoles only take about 10-15mins to cook in the oven, the bigger 1/2 cup rissoles take about 25 mins, depends how flat you make them…….then I would let them all cool & freeze the rissoles & take out when needed……the little bite size rissoles only take about 15mins to thaw out… the rissoles break up real easy & you just break up over his kibble… you can even boil some potatoes & add a tin of tuna in spring water, drain the spring water & mix the boiled mashed potato thru or salmon in spring water drained & add some potatoes……

[cori R]

Good day everyone,

I have a Yorkie/Poodle mix dog , who will be 6 year old in January 2016.
About 16 months ago, he suffered an Acute Pancreatitis attack and was in the hospital for 3 days.
Ever since them, it has been a struggle to find the perfect food for him, as he needs to be in a very low fat diet and he will not eat any of the recommended by the vet.
Because of that my only choice was to cook for him and did a saliva test by Dr. Jean Dodds and the results were not good news at all. He is sensitive to most carbs (Rice, Oatmeal, Potatoes, sweet potatoes), all fish, chicken, beef, Duck, Venison.
The only protein Koby can eat is Lamb. So, with recommendations of a holistic Vet. I have been feeding Koby, Boiled/smash cassava root with carrots and boiled lamb (with all fat removed), I also add vitamins and L-Glutamine to the food and give him probiotic…Koby has been in that diet for over a year now, the thing I have been noticing on his poo is that he always have mucus, some days more than others and at times very soft stool with traces of blood. On Aug 19, 2015. I have to rush him and my other dog (Teddy) to the emergency as both of them have diarrhea and drops of blood. Just to make something clear Teddy is my other dog (Minni-Poodle mix, who is 2 ½ years old) and both are in the same diet) Teddy diarrhea was very bloody and lots of mucus. The vet did stool analicys and couldn’t find any parasites and they were put in antibiotics for 7 days…Koby still has diarrhea and for the last couple days , I see traces of blood and lots of mucus. Teddy is also having issues with gas and stomach noises. I’m beyond frustrated, as I don’t know what to do anymore for the little ones.
Do you think that is the cassava roots making them sick now?
Should I go back to kibble? Is so, any recommendations for dogs that are highly sensitive?
I have an appt with the Holistic vet tomorrow afternoon, Is there anything I should ask for him to check?
I appreciated your help…Thank you 

[Anonymous]

If it was my dog I would make an appointment with a Internal Medicine Specialist (traditional not homeopathic) ASAP.
In the meantime I would stop all supplements and keep the diet as simple as possible.
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
I would consider a veterinarian recommended prescription food until the dogs are stable (could take a few months), then evaluate my options.

What did the emergency vet advise you? What was the diagnosis?
PS: I would call the emergency vet and have him call you back when he has a minute and ask him these questions.

[Anonymous]

Another thought, if the symptoms are as severe as you describe. If it were my dog, I might be inclined to cancel the “holistic vet” appointment for tomorrow and go back to the emergency vet today, maybe they can refer you to a specialist…to be seen sooner than later.

[cori R]

Hi Red,

Thank you for replying back.
The Vet at the emergency clinic said that it could be viral and did feces test which cameback negative for Gardia. The only gave me antibiotics for 7 days but not solid reason on why the blood. I asker if they need to do more testing and she said no… Thank you for you advice.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like the emergency vet expected the problem to clear up within a few days, it didn’t. Call her and leave a message for her to call you back when she has a minute. Did they rule out an obstruction? Do an x-ray? More testing may be indicated now.
Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

“Because of that my only choice was to cook for him and did a saliva test by Dr. Jean Dodds and the results were not good news at all. He is sensitive to most carbs (Rice, Oatmeal, Potatoes, sweet potatoes), all fish, chicken, beef, Duck, Venison”.

Canine Nutrigenomics by Dr. Jean Dodds: Science as Windowdressing

[cori R]

Red…Thank you again for the article.

[aquariangt]

I would absolutely follow Dr Dobbs over the Skeptvet for nutritional advice (and most other things)

[InkedMarie]

Cori,
You said he’s sensitive to chicken, fish, beef, duck & venison but he can only have lamb. There are other proteins in foods: Goat, kangaroo, rabbitt, off the top of my head.

[Anonymous]

Maybe your dogs symptoms have nothing to do with the diet? I would listen to a veterinarian that has personally examined your pets and reviewed their medical history and diagnostic tests.

[Susan]

Hi Cori R sounds like Colitis, when I first rescued my boy he was pooing sloppy poos with jelly on them or diarrhea with blood, vet said Colitis & he was put on Metronidazole (Flagyl) for 2-3 weeks & Royal Canine Hypoallergenic kibble BUT the fat was toooo high in the R/C HP & Patch then got Pancreatitis…..
I would try another protein like InkedMarie said, Kangaroo is very low in fat, start again, just 1 protein & 1 new veggie then start adding 1 new ingredient…… I wouldn’t stay on the same protein everyday, after you try 1 protein & its OK, then stop feeding that protein & try another new protein, then feed a different protein every 2nd or 3rd day, this way he doesn’t start reacting to the same protein that he keeps getting everyday……
About 2-3 years ago my boy couldn’t eat chicken, turkey, potatoes, sweet potatoes, now he can eat potato, sweet potato & chicken…..another thing Patches vet gave me a few repeats of the Metronidazole & as soon as I started to see Patches poos becoming sloppy or when I start introducing a new kibble, I had to give Patch 1 Metronidazole tablet a day for 2 weeks… Patch was put on a vet diet for 6-9months & just ate the vet diet, maybe that help fix his bowel & stomach or the Metronidazole fixed his bowel something helped cause he can eat anything now as long as it low in fat & I’ve tried it in his elimination diet….maybe your boy just cant break down proteins & needs a vet diet that is hypoallergenic & the protein has been broken down for him, I’m not one for vet diets but sometimes you need to use them just for 6months, Patch was put on the Eukanuba Intestinal Low Residue kibble to let his stomach & bowel have a rest…..

[chris]

I agree that Zignature kangaroo would be worth a try as I’ve heard in the past from another that had the same issue with his dog and it seemed to work great for him.

[cori R]

Thank you everyone for all the replies. I took Teddy yesterday to his Vet and she thinks that may be food allergies. She gave me to try HA Hydrolyzed Canine Formula by PURINA VET…but honestly I’m not 100% sure as it main source of protein is Soy.
She also suggested to change the prohibiotic to FortiFlora by Purina as well.
I will be doing some blood work for food allergies and maybe an ultrasound of his belly in the next few days.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by cori R.

[Susan]

Hi, have you heard of Glacier Peak Holistic hair & salvia testing, it test for 100+ Environment allergies & 200+ Food triggers, & only cost $85 there’s also Jean Dodds Salvia testing but that just test for 30 foods & is dearer….. http://www.glacierpeakholistics.com/More-Than-an-Allergy-Test_p_80.html

Purina FortiFlora is suppose to be really good they tested 10 dog probiotics & only 2 of the dog probiotics had live active bacteria & Purina FortiFlora had the most live bacteria….

[Author]

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