[Dori]

This is copied and pasted from BDN web site today.

INGREDIENTS & GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
1. CHICKEN SUPREME
Wholesome air dried whole chicken (grade A) ground with bones, green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):30% Crude Fat (min):17% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.56:1

2. TURKEY SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, whole turkey (grade A) ground with bones, liver, green beef tripe, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):31% Crude Fat (min):16% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.63:1

3. TRIPE SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):31% Crude Fat (min):15% Crude Fiber (max):2.5% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.75:1

4. BEEF SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, Angus beef (grade A), green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):30% Crude Fat (min):18% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.2:1

5. FISH SUPREME
Wholesome air dried whole fish (North-Atlantic wild caught) ground with the bone and organs, liver, green beef tripe, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):32% Crude Fat (min):16% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.3:1

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Dori.

[theBCnut]

They all look very yummy to me.

[cindy q]

I’m still not sure if this is balanced or if I should be adding something to the food?

[Dori]

Glad to hear you like them BC. I’ve recently added the Beef, Tripe and Fish to the girls rotation. Hubby is quite the squeamish one when it comes to feeding raw so this is as close as I can get if he has to feed a meal because I’ve dared to not be home at the girl’s meal time. I wish they didn’t have the freeze dried potato in their ingredients but as you know I feed rotational diet with every meal it really won’t be a big deal. I don’t like to feed Hannah with anything that has white potatoes because of her touch of arthritis.

cindy q. I believe that some of us have stated (not just me) that for an adult or senior dog this is a great food to feed in a rotational diet. Also most of the regulars on this site feed rotational diets so that what they may miss in one meal (if, indeed, that is the case with any food you may feed) they will pick it up in the next meal. Every single meal does not have to be “complete and balanced”. Complete and Balanced has to be met over a period of a week. If you feed a rotation diet then you really should not have any problems when feeding quality foods. If you’ve followed any of my posts on the DFA site I’m a firm believer in both raw and rotational feeding. My three dogs are my proof (for me) that this is the best diet for them.

I’ve never owned a large dog so have never had to research large puppy requirements in a dog food. I believe it has to do with the calcium in a food so as to not have their bones growing quicker than they should. Others would be knowledgeable in that area. I believe this food would also be fine for puppies of medium, small and toy dogs. I would have no issue feeding puppies this food but, again, I don’t feed any food solely.

[Kristin C]

Cindy-maybe you should give them a call. BDN answered my email but not my question about the reconstituted analysis, nor do they provide a nutrient analysis on their website as far as I can see. Are you feeding this as your only source? Because you sound concerned. I agree with Dori that rotation is best so if you don’t get an acceptable answer from BDN you may want to consider adding in other brands.

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
Does anyone know if you must order a certain dollar amount to get the free shipping with the introductory offer? After checking this food out, it doesn’t look like it costs anymore than a premium kibble if you order enough. Also my dogs are not crazy about the Honest Kitchen, but this food looks a little more chunky than THK. Has anyone’s dog not cared for THK, but likes this food? Thanks!

[Dori]

C4C You get 10% off and free shipping on their introductory offer. It’s a good way to try the food and see if your dogs like it. My three dogs are not picky and as I’ve often said would it the package, bag, box the food came in so they are really not a judge as to what they will eat. They love THK as the love all things edible and not. The only food that Hannah, one of the three, has turned her nose up to was Oracle tripe. The other two loved the food. She would not. One of the differences, as I’ve posted in the past, THK has a very strong smell of grasses, herbs, etc. BDN smells of meat (looks like ground meat) that you would be preparing for a meat sauce before you add all your typical sauces and tomatoes etc. for your self and your family. It really does smell and look good. I would suggest you give it a try. Order the smallest amount and get their introductory 10% off and free shipping if you and the dogs don’t like it, it’s not that big a deal. They also have sample packages which include different proteins. I originally ordered their Package number 2 because the girls cannot eat chicken, turkey or anything fowl. So I think it was beef, tripe and maybe fish???. Anyway, though I feed raw, this was a good alternative for my husband who is too squeamish to feed raw incase I’m not home. Men…….grrrrrrrrrh!

[cindy q]

Dori I would like to feed a rotation but BDN is the only food I have found that my dogs will eat that’s why I wondered if this food needed any thing added to it

Kristin. I did email them and they said the food was nutritional complete.

Crazyforcats. My dogs hated Honest kitchen and they love BDN.

[Kristin C]

Hey Cindy-if your dogs love BDN then stick with it but consider adding a supplement and some variety, maybe some real raw here and there, and some novel proteins. Check out the See Spot Live Longer website.

[USA]

Hi Everyone,

I read the ingredient lists for BDN foods and I took this off their website:

“The final product is air dried between 80 and 100 degrees in order not to destroy the integrity of the raw ingredients. All processes of humidity, wind velocity and temperature are monitored and automatically altered when necessary. In this way, we produce a very high end product, that is not only very bio-available but also very much liked by the ones we are doing it for, our dogs.”

My concerns are:
1) They don’t say if 80-100 degrees is F or C, if it’s C then the temps would be 176-212 F and there would be no issue with bacterial growth but it would not be a very gentle temperature. If 80-100 degrees is F, that is a good temperature for bacterial growth. So if the air-dried process takes 8 hours then that food is growing bacteria until the moisture level gets to its finished state of 12% or below. In order to turn fresh meat and veggies into the granola consistency that BDN is, the time of drying at 80-100 degrees F would be 8-12 hours? Without knowing their process I can only guesstimate but even with very high fan speed (air movement) it could take 12 hours or more.

2) Bone, they use ground bone in the chicken, turkey and fish recipes. How finely is that bone ground and how brittle is it after the air drying. How much does the air drying increase the danger of the bone to the dogs that eat it? I don’t know but it is something that would be of concern to me if I were going to feed my dogs BDN.

[cindy q]

the bone must be ground really fine because I have never seen any pieces of bone in the food.

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

You bring up a very interesting point.

I’ve never felt comfortable with the company and as such wouldn’t ever feed their diets. When the company reps posted on DFA I found their responses to my inquiries to be lacking in basic courtesy. As I recall, they would not disclose the calcium levels in their food and said something to the effect that a posted ratio was adequate information for anyone wanting information on the mineral levels in their foods. It made no sense really.

They had a statement on their site which included a reference. I couldn’t find that reference anyplace and asked for further information as to where I could find the original document. I found their response rude. As I recall they replied saying they posted all the information I’d need. I did eventually find what I think was the reference. As I remember it, BDN had the title words in a different order and the original document didn’t support their statement. I can no longer find the statement in question on their site.

I find their ingredient list disturbing. I don’t recognize the terms as being AAFCO compliant. As I have never purchased the food I don’t know if the ingredient panel on the actual product is the same as on their site. Perhaps someone who has this product can tell me what the label states.

I’m quite certain AAFCO forbids descriptors like “grade A” and “Wholesome” Furthermore, there is no such thing as grade A beef. Beef is graded as U.S.D.A. Prime, U.S.D.A. Choice, U.S.D.A. Select etc. Poultry is graded A, B, and C depending on the presence of broken bones and exposed muscle.

Their use of comma’s and parenthesis shows lack of attention to detail.
Wholesome air dried, Angus beef (grade A), green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

When a company messes up on the basics I can’t ever trust them to get the complicated stuff right.

[Dori]

I have never seen any bone or bone pieces in the food. I agree with cindy q on the issue of bones.

USA and anyone else interested. I just spoke to someone at Big Dog Natural. They air dry their food at 80 – 100 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours.

I decided that instead of guessing, I would just pick up the phone and call. My call was returned within 20 minutes. I have never once been given the run around with any question I have asked. They have been nothing but forthcoming with me. I choose to have the food in rotation with my three dogs everyone else can make up their own minds. As I have said often in the past…..these issues that are being questioned back and forth may very well not sit well with some if this is the ONLY food you are going to feed your dogs. Most of us on DFA rotate foods, supplements, within the brands and different brands. Anyway, my dogs love the food and they have absolutely no issues with the food. No diarrhea, gas, no constipation, no itchiness, no bad breath, no tear stains, no gurgling stomachs, their poops are exactly the way they should be for dogs that eat raw-small well formed not too hard don’t stick to the ground no smell whatsoever.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Dori.

[pugmomsandy]

They’re bags of food do not have an ingredient or GA label. Just the name of the product like Beef Supreme or Chicken Supreme, etc.

[USA]

Hi Dori,

Thank you for getting that info from BDN! I am glad that BDN is working out well for you and your crew.

You wrote:
“I just spoke to someone at Big Dog Natural. They air dry their food at 80 – 100 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours.”

24 hours is a very long time to keep a raw food at 80 to 100 degrees F. Imagine taking a couple of pounds of any raw food that contained meat and vegetables and placing it outside on a 100 degree F Georgia day. Then take a powerful fan and have it blow on the food. Leave the raw meat outside in the 100 degree temps with the fan blowing on it for 24 hours. That is not a food I would feed my dog.

And pugmomsandy wrote:
“They’re bags of food do not have an ingredient or GA label. Just the name of the product”.

This lets me know that BDN is not following the regulations for labeling dog foods. That is not a good sign for me.

You also wrote:
“As I have said often in the past…..these issues that are being questioned back and forth may very well not sit well with some if this is the ONLY food you are going to feed your dogs”

The way this food is air-dried and the potential it carries for bacterial growth along with the lack of proper labeling are issues that would prevent me from using this food regardless of how many other foods were in my rotation.

Again, I am very happy that BDN is working out for you and your guys!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by USA.

[cindy q]

USAdogtreats, curious as to what you feed? Thanks

[USA]

Hi cindy q,

I feed my guys a homemade diet of fresh pasture-raised meats, free-range poultry and wild-caught fish. I do not feed them any foods that contain ground bone because I lightly cook everything. Their diet is about 80% meats and 20% vegetables. They occasionally get organs and fruits. I lightly cook everything and I use supplements to make sure their diet is balanced and complete.

[Kristin C]

USA-what supplements do you use?

[cindy q]

Has anyone ever used stewarts freeze dried?

[pugmomsandy]

Makes me wonder how ZiwiPeak air dries their food! I’m on my second large bag of it and have one more unopened!

[USA]

Hi Kristin C,

I use See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mixes as my main supplement. I also use Balance IT Carnivore Blend. For Omega 3’s I use canned sardines in water and I dehydrate calamari and salmon fillets with skin. I alternate digestive enzymes and probiotics (100 billion). For fiber I use psyllium husks, sprouted flax seeds, dehulled hemp seeds and ground chia. I use ground chia instead of whole chia seeds because I’m worried about the tiny seeds getting caught in their digestive tracts.

[aimee]

“This lets me know that BDN is not following the regulations for labeling dog foods. That is not a good sign for me” + 1 USA Dog Treats.

No information on the label WOW just WOW!!!

[Kristin C]

Thanks USA. My girls just had their first SSLL this morning. I give them a can of sardines each per week to round out the raw meat, organs, puréed veg mix they mostly eat.

Has anyone tried The Honest Kitchen base mix? It’s dehydrated so I’m afraid it will be chunky like Sojo’s which does not digest well.

[cindy q]

BDN does label their bigger 5lb bags of food and when you buy the smaller packs they have a paper in with them with all the info.

[aimee]

Kristin C,

i have used Honest Kitchen Preference. Readily identifiable food elements were present in the stool. The sweet potato came out looking identical to when it went in. The pumpkin was not identified in the stool, cabbage was minimally digested, apple was significantly digested peel were identified. Cooking the food solved the digestion issue. I posted on the HK thread complete with pics if you are interested.

[theBCnut]

Is it even legal to sell food without the proper package labeling? It is supposed to be government regulated blah, blah, blah.

[cindy q]

I bought a bag of Stewarts raw naturals freeze dried to try, hoping my dogs like it. Can someone look at the website and tell me what you think of this food? Thanks

[Dori]

Hi cindy q. I went on their site and, actually, the food looks pretty decent. I put a call into them and have been told that all ingredients with the exception of the lamb which is sourced from New Zealand are locally sourced and absolutely nothing is from China. She is getting back to me either today or tomorrow because I wanted to know what she can tell me about the vitamin e supplement. She is double checking to make sure that the vitamin e contains no soy. She wasn’t sure. Personally I avoid feeding as much as possible soy for Katie. Autoimmune issues. Web site also states that it meets AAFCO standards. I’m going to assume that it meets AAFCO’s standards but has not actually gone through AAFCO feeding trial. I’ll post more on the vitamin e went she gets back to me. Hope all goes well with the new food.

[Dori]

aimee and BC. It’s only the sample bags that do not have the labels. They do include a page with all info on the food in the box with the samples. Their regular bags have labeling on the bags.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Dori.

[theBCnut]

Gothcha! Thanks!

[Kristin C]

Thanks Aimee. I opened one of my samples and it looks chunky so I don’t have high hopes for THK but I will try it next week.

Cindy, I found the Stewarts this week too and I think it looks pretty good. Let me know how it works out for you.

Dori, you rock. I’d like to hear more about Stewarts when you hear back from them.

[cindy q]

Thank You Dori!

[cindy q]

Sure Kristin I am going to try it tonight.

[aimee]

Thanks Dori,

It still appears that BDN is in violation of labeling laws. I don’t see that the FDA makes any exceptions for “samples”.

How are the ingredients listed on the label? Are they as on the website? If so the company is in violation.

[cindy q]

if they are in violation, why can they still sell it? I am hoping this company is ok. My dogs love their food.

[cindy q]

My dogs ate the Stewarts food tonight and liked it! Now hopefully it agree’s with them.

[Kristin C]

Woohoo! Let me know how it goes. You are brave. I only feed my dogs new stuff in the morning.

[aimee]

IMO….Lack of enforcement. As I understand it at the state level there is one official to cover all animal feed sold in the state. Depending on the state, and I’d guess funding, there are likely lots of holes in the system. Additionally, I think smaller companies are more likely to fly under the radar. Months ago I reported an illegal label to my state official. The official agreed and said the food was being sold in the state illegally….. but it is still being sold here. Shrug

Products sold for tear staining that contain tylosin have been sold for years but from this it looks like it is just recently that the FDA is acting on it http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm411975.htm

[Kristin C]

Cindy-how are your dog’s doing on the Stewart’s? I am thinking about ordering some.

[cindy q]

Kristin, no problems at all with the Stewarts! They like it and their stools are good. I am still hoping somone finds out that BDN is fine to feed. I would like to use both. I have been thinking of trying darwins also.

[Nancy C]

The Homeopathic vet I have worked with recommends BDN and Darwins as raw food options that HE stands behind. I have asked him point blank about BDN and he says it is excellent food, he knows the company (has no ownership and is not personally involved) and he knows the food and therefore recommends it on his website.
I called them (BDN) today to ask about the calcium/phos ratio for beef. no problem: It’s 1:1. I do not understand the issue with BDN but my dog gobbles it like there is no tomorrow and I am going on my vet’s recommendation because he is extremely particular. Has 6 dogs himself, including several Grayhounds I think he said (or some large specialty breed) and feeds it and Darwins to ALL SIX of his dogs. Loves both foods. To find his website can google Dr. Charles Loops DVM. He is VERY intelligent and has been a homeopathic vet for 30 yrs. Pays attention to things that regular allopathic vets do not. Treats lots of dogs with Cancer succesfully. His recommendation goes a long way with me.

[cindy q]

Thanks! It seems almost too good to be true, my dogs love it and the price is very reasonable.

[Nancy C]

I just went to the BDN site – it is not freeze dried. It is AIR dried. I am not knowledgable about the difference but I remember CHRIS the woman with whom I spoke telling me their process is unusual to what most companies do which is FREEZE dried. And they do not heat it so hot either. Sometime call her and ask. She is very nice and told me recently she IS one of the owners. Another one of the owners is supposedly VERY knowledgable about canine nutrition. He has several Mastiffs and they ALL eat and thrive on BDN.
Chris told me too that one of their goals was to produce an affordable healthy raw food. I am FAR from an expert, but as I said, I know Dr. Loops knows what he’s talking about. He was originally for 10 yrs a regular vet. then learned about homeopathy because of all the things in the vet business that HE DID NOT BELIEVE WEre goOD FOR DOGS…. so he trained to become a HOmeopath. I think he has trained with Dr. Pitcairn. Enough for now.

[Kristin C]

Thanks Cindy. I think I am going to try Stewart’s myself. As for BDN I am sure it is fine in rotation. I currently use Darwin’s but am not going to re-order. The meat turns brown which I don’t like. I think if you order a small quantity on a very frequent basis it’s probably better. I keep coming back to making my own food.

[Nancy C]

BC Nut thank you for your input regarding the low parvo titer. My GSD had a parvo /distemper in Checzoslovakia (where he is from) at 12 weeks to the very DAY of his birth. Then he had his second one at exactly 9 months old. So he has had TWO vaccines of it. Dr. Loops the homeopath says that that is ENOUGH — he is fine. I do not understand all this titer stuff although have read a lot, esp Dr. Ron Schultz’s work at the Univ of Wisc Sch of Vet Medicine. He has researched vaccines for 30 yrs and Dr. Loops told me about an article in Dogs Naturally Magazine which he put on his Facebook Page because all people need to have this information about vaccines. Can google REVACCINATION AND DOGS at DogsNaturally and the article pops up. It is VERY informative as regards HOW the protocols and “standards” for vaccines even originated and what the truth is about that. The Pharmacomafia at work. (sorry if I offend anyone).
Maybe at some point BDN will offer up the info that people want. I’m baffled.

[Nancy C]

Cindy- Keep us informed about the Stewarts. I have Darwins in the freezer (the intro pack) and my golden gobbled the chicken. I can’t figure out HOW to avoid giving it COLD to her. One time I put the glass bowl in the toaster over on WARM so she would not have to eat it right out of the frig where it had thawed. I know it is considered one of the best and am interested in knowing HOW Stewarts compares to it.

[Nancy C]

Kristin – What exactly does “the meat turns brown” refer to? (Darwins). I noticed that after thawing the chicken the outside was brownish but when I mashed it up in the bowl it was all more reddish inside…. all sort of like ground round how it turns brown on the outside aft a couple of days but it is still red inside. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Oxidation? would that be harmful?

[Kristin C]

Nancy- Yes, it means oxidation. To me that just means older meat. Oxidation changes the protein structure some but I don’t think it’s necessarily harmful. Since the raw meals I make stay nice and pink (unless I stock up for a while) I have decided to forego Darwin’s moving forward and just make my own chicken and beef every week or two. I am starting to try Reel Raw’s novelty proteins so I will see how pink those stay.

[theBCnut]

Oxidation has to do with the length of time that meat is exposed to air. Darwin’s is known for getting small holes in their packaging and so air gets in. It is still fresh frozen, just not as pretty as we would like it to be. Dogs have no problem with plain old freezer burned meat, so they won’t have any issues with that. But I still wish Darwin’s would use slightly thicker plastic.

[Kristin C]

Got it BC. But I’ve noticed when I make my own raw meals (I freeze in single serving mason jars) that the older portions start to turn brown like Darwin’s. The newer portions stay pink throughout. I agree that it doesn’t cause short term issues. But it’s expensive brown meat (Darwin’s). I know they mark their production date on each package but by the time it’s shipped it could already be several weeks old, and depending on how much you order by the time it’s eaten it could be several months old. Just consider that Nancy because you might want to order smaller quantities more frequently.

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