[pacer1978]

Thanks Hound Dog Mom…is this by chance the correct website that you order from?

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-soil-based-organisms-90-caps

I did notice that they also offer a pet probiotic. Do you recommend the human probiotic over that because you had mentioned that they are higher quality? If that is the case, why are there “pet” supplements to begin with? Thanks again!!

[pugmomsandy]

Fresh meat and organs, eggs, fish, etc is better than any processed food. I’m saying that if you add too much of fresh food (more than 20%), then you will unbalance his diet and then he will not be getting enough of certain nutrients and the result will be a diet that is lacking and therefore not a good food afterall.

That’s why I suggested a “complete and balanced” canned food that has vitamins and minerals if you need to add alot of fresh food because with the canned food you will also be adding vitamins and minerals and EFA’s.

A fresh food diet that does not have the necessary vits/minerals/trace elements, etc is a bad diet even though it is fresh.

[beagleowner]

Yes and so I am searching for advice on adding nutrients or vitamins. Our vet didn’t offer any suggestions other than putting him on the Hills H/d and I would rather not do that. I did read thatvCentrum can be fed to dogs. Have you heard that.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’ve never heard of cod liver oil being bad for any dog. You just can’t give too much because it’s rich in vitamins a and d (both fat soluble). The special considerations would just be to keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio low but balanced until the pup is at least 8 months old. A good way to achieve this is by feeding a lot of green tripe. Mabel ate about 25% of her diet as green tripe until she was 8 months old. Green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 but very low concentrations of each mineral – only about 0.3%. It’s also loaded with digestive enzymes and probiotics.

[pugmomsandy]

coconut oil:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

Pet products: krill, probiotics, digestive enzymes, spirugreen

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet.aspx

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_10/features/15752-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/spirugreen.aspx

It’s hard to get enough vit E from the diet so I supplement with a soy-free E capsule.

I also give a glandular supplement since my dogs don’t get to eat various organs.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go-4.html

Human products are cheaper! I buy Mercola and SwansonVitamins products and both the humans and dogs get all these supplements! Not everyday though, just a couple days a week maybe since I buy the human products and have small dogs.

Also garlic and apple cider vinegar have health benefits too.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/2_6/features/5220-1.html

http://b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=index&main_page=newsletters

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Cranberry –

I have used all three of the above mentioned pre-mixes and liked them all. Two other pre-mixes that I’d recommend (my two favorites) are Urban Wolf and See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix. Just as with foods, you shouldn’t use the same pre-mix continuously. I’d personally recommend switching pre-mixes after every package, this will ensure that your dogs get a varied and well-rounded diet.

My favorite canned foods are Nature’s Logic, ZiwiPeak, Addiction and Nature’s Variety Instinct. I also like Tripett as a topper (it’s not a balanced canned food – just green tripe).

To clarify – you’re using canned foods as the meat portion of the pre-mix recipe? You shouldn’t do this – the diet will not be balanced. Balanced canned foods are complete and balanced foods than can be fed as is – balanced calcium to phosphorus ratios and balanced vitamin and mineral levels. Pre-mixes contain calcium, vitamins/minerals (either in whole food or synthetic form) and, often, fruits and vegetables and are designed for the addition of boneless meat. If you want to feed a cooked diet utilizing a pre-mix you will need to buy boneless meat from the grocery store, cook it and add it to the pre-mix in the recommended proportion. You could feed a canned food in addition to the food prepared using the pre-mix and boneless meat but you should not use a canned food as the meat.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Anonymous]

i would never feed my dog food from big lots or any of those “cheap stores” there most likely to sell non known name brand foods. would you feed yourself non known name brands foods? I only feed my animals holistic health extension dry/canned food. it is 95% real meat and has tons of vitamins and minerals in it

[SandyandMila]

Can I just use the one I got periodically, it’s a big bottle that I really don’t want it to go to waste. I can add the green superfood to her diet once I get it and give her less of the multi. If I feed Preference with her homemade raw which has vitamins and minerals including kelp and alfalfa do I still need a green or multi supplement? I know HDM said u can’t overdose on them, just want to make sure I know what I’m doing. She’s already been getting bee pollen and the commercial raw she’s had has coconut oil, salmon oil, and ACV so I’d just be giving those with the homemade raw, right? The dry and wet food is only one or two days a week and will be less once my Hare Today order comes in.

[SandyandMila]

Bummer I thought I had gotten a good product and started giving it to her today. 🙁 I didn’t find what I was originally looking for (spirulina powder, chlorella powder, wheat grass powder etc.). I feed mostly raw (commercial and homemade) but also kibble (NV or Orijen) and canned (wellness, weruva) when I don’t have raw. I also just got Preference to feed with grinds for the added fruits, veggies, vitamins, and minerals. So I would have to get a whole foods supplement + a multi? I also saw this at the store, it is human-grade but they had it in the pet section as well. Is it a better option? http://www.solgar.com/pub/supplement/1180.pdf. I’ll read your post on the other forum. Guess I’m still confused with all if this. Can I feed the one I got with grinds and my RMB meals and just add a whole food supplement, if I can find one?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Is Mila eating a homemade diet or commercial diet? (Sorry I’m drawing a blank here – I know you were trying raw but I can’t remember if you switched her completely to homemade raw or are just supplementing a commercial food with raw). If you’re feeding predominantly a commercially prepared balanced food (be it raw, kibble, etc.) I personally feel Mila would benefit much more from a whole food based supplement as opposed to a supplement such as this which consists of mostly synthetic vitamins and minerals (for more details on the benefits of whole food supplementation you can read the post I just made to sharkie on the large breed puppy thread). If she’s eating homemade food and you were planning on using this as a vitamin/mineral supplement, it’s not going to supply adequate levels of vitamin e or manganese (I don’t think I see managanese?) and I still feel that a whole food based supplement should be given in conjunction with a multivitamin/mineral. Sorry if any of this is repeated information or was already discussed, my brain isn’t all here today and I’m forgetting who I’ve talked to, what was said by who, etc. lol

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

It does have some beneficial ingredients (probiotics, enzymes, EFA’s and glucosamine) but it also has a lot of synthetic vitamins and minerals. Adding additional vitamins and minerals to a balanced commercial food really isn’t necessary and probably won’t provide any benefit to the dog. You couldn’t certainly discuss the supplement with your vet though if you wish to continue with it. Personally if it were me I’d just add plain yogurt or kefir, tinned sardines and digestive enzymes a few days a week or add a digestive supplement with enzymes and probiotics and a quality human-grade fish oil. There are also a lot of whole food based supplements available such as Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier, Nupro, Wholistic Canine Complete, Wysong’s Wild Things, Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Daily Boost, Dogzymes Cornucopia, Dr. Harvey’s Whole Food Based Multi-Vitamin, Udo’s Choice Pet Essentials, Carnivora’s Earth Greens etc. etc. Or you could even mix your own whole food supplement which is a lot cheaper. When I make my whole food supplement I purchase bulk ingredients from Swanson’s or Starwest Botanicals and combine them in the desired proportions. My general recipe is part kelp, 1 part spirulina, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part wheatgrass and 1 part bee pollen – occasionally I’ll sub in something else (chlorella, barley grass, sprouted chia, etc. for one of the other ingredients for variety). I also give things like glandulars, colostrum, etc. It’s nearly impossible to “overdose” on whole foods, the nutrients provided by whole foods are better utilized by the body and whole “superfoods” fill the nutritional gaps by adding phytonutrients, cartenoids, etc. that aren’t found in kibble or and that aren’t provided by synthetic multivitamins.

[Woodcutter]

Hi HDM. On the front label it reads: made with real chicken and goes on with Chelated minerals for better absorption. Sounds good so far, next line is “good omega 6 to 3 ratio”
bran & flaxseed….product of USA
on the back;:Chicken, chicken broth, beef liver, beef lung, ocean fish, oat bran, tomato paste, flaxseed flour, and after this is a bunch of elements & vitamins and minerals

their guaranteed analysis:
crude protien(min)….9%
crude fat(min)………..6%
crude fiber(max)…….1.5%
moisture(max)……….78%
It goes on to say it meets nutrition levels of AAFCO for all stages of a dogs life.
So this food doesn’t look all that bad really and it made me wonder why it’s at Big Lots. I have bought other canned food from them and after checking here I was too leery to feed it and got rid of it. I think it was Harmony Farms. or some such. It looks as though it would rate at least a 4, maybe a 5 but I just don’t know if there have been any problems with the maker.

[westfinn]

I too saw the Paramount brand at Walmart and noticed they have a grain free variety. Since I had never heard of this brand decided to do a little searching. It is owned by USPet which you can find doing an internet search. I emailed the company to ask where their ingredients come from just to make sure it’s not China. This is what they wrote back:

“Thank you for contacting USPet Nutrition about our Paramount ingredients.

Paramount is made with US sourced ingredients with the exception of a portion of the vitamins and minerals that are added to the food to be sure it provides 100% of a dog’s nutritional requirements. Some of the vitamins and minerals are not available domestically so we source them from qualified suppliers outside of the US. Components of the vitamin and minerals are sourced from either Asia or Europe. These ingredients make up less than 1% of the formula and are tested on a regular basis to ensure quality specifications are met.”

Since there have been no reviews for this product I’m still not sure if I should let my small breed adult companion try it. If anyone else has tried it and has the analysis for it I would really love to hear from you.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sharfie –

It’s fine to supplement a dog’s diet with whole foods but I would avoid supplements that contain synthetic vitamins and minerals when feeding a balanced commercial food unless advised to do so by a veterinarian – this is especially critical for puppies because they are more sensitive to vitamin and mineral deficiencies and excesses than adult dogs. I found the website for ProBalance but I can’t locate an ingredients list. Is it a whole food based supplement or does it contain synthetic vitamins and minerals?

[Shawna]

Hi Lagotto,

We noticed (at the breeders) that she had excessive drinking and urination, as compared to her 5 siblings, when she was about 6 weeks old. She came to live with me when she was 9 weeks old. At about 4 weeks old she started failing to thrive — because she had a collapsing trachea and couldn’t get enough milk from her mommy. So the breeder put her on raw goat milk and egg whites, syringe fed every 2 to 4 hours, til she could eat on her own. She was weaned onto raw food — mainly hamburger, eggs, raw milk etc.

When she came to me I was making a home made raw diet for my current dogs and she went on that same diet. At her vet visit I told her holistic vet she urinated/drank a lot but her vet poo poo’d my concern and said puppies drink and therefore urinate more. She has bright eyes, she’s very smart, good coat quality etc. She’s a healthy puppy… In looking back I’m actually thankful that happened. Audrey continued on the homemade raw diet til her one year checkup where her bloodwork showed high bun and creatinine. I started tweaking her diet and would take her in every three months for additional bloodwork to see what the tweaking was doing. Turns out, the diet I had been feeding her all along was the best for her with one exception. To the diet I added a “prebiotic” and probiotics to help lower her BUN. Works like a charm..

Audrey continued on the homemade diet for several years but then I got too busy to keep up with homemade exclusively so I started incorporating commercial raw diets — Bravo as an example. Became busier yet and moved exclusively to commercial raw — Bravo, Darwins, Answers (recently started) and premixes like The Honest Kitchen Preference and Steve’s Premix with raw meats.. Audrey turned 7 years old the end of June and is still going strong. I have NOT lowered her protein. I have not lowered her phosphorus or made any other changes than adding prebiotic/probiotic and supplements. I use Garden of Life’s Primal Defense probiotic and Fiber35’s Sprinkle Fiber as the prebiotic. A really good prebiotic, made specifically for dogs, can be found on Dr. Mercola’s website under the “Pets” link and then under “Products”.

I would NOT regularly feed her kibble if I was paid to do so. In my opinion, kibble will cause a much earlier death in a kidney disease dog.. Kibble is a POOR QUALITY food for kd dogs/cats—even the best kibbles on the market… At the very least, feed a canned diet. If you can, feed raw or lightly cooked. I also don’t feed Audrey any grains. IF you are going to feed grains it needs to be either sushi rice (aka glutinous rice) or cream of wheat (or farina). These two grains are low phosphorus. All other grains have higher phosphorus and don’t add anything to the diet that can’t be found in a more species appropriate food.

You also want to feed higher fat foods — ditch the lean ground beef.. Feed the highest fat foods you can get (unless she is showing signs of pancreatitis). Fat adds calories without phosphorus—adding organic coconut oil is a good idea too. Protein is NOT damaging to the kidneys and only needs to be reduced to prevent symptoms of uremia in the later stages of the disease — such as vomiting or depression. Audrey has NEVER to date ate low protein.

Let her have ALL the water she wants. Audrey used to sleep in the water bowl when it was empty — she was that obsessed with water and, I’m guessing, desperately trying to tell me she needed some. She started this, sleeping in water dish, at the breeders. I kept potty pads ALL over the house for her. I was lucky in that she used them. During the night I keep her in a 4 foot by 4 foot enclosure we made (for our foster puppies). It was made out of wood and plastic chicken wire. I had her water bowl, her kennel, a blanket outside the kennel and a potty pad with LOTS of newspapers under it — she would fill a potty pad to the point of leaking during the night. As she got older she was able to hold it. Since about three months of age she has slept with me in my bed at nights.

Darwins now has a kidney diet.. I haven’t seen it yet but I do think it is worth checking out. Urban Wolf has a premix designed for kd dogs that can be added to raw or home cooked meats. And I think Grandma Lucy’s has a lower phosphorus premix that is also suitable for dogs needing their phos lowered..

Also consider adding a whole food B and C vitamin to the diet. These two vitamins are “water soluble” and because of the excessive urination can become depleted if not supplemented. I use Standard Process Cataplex B and C. I also give Audrey a whole food multi as a precaution. I use Standard Process Catalyn. Standard Process also makes a whole food supplement specifically for dogs with kidney disease. It’s called Canine Renal Support — I HIGHLY recommend using it. I also give liver support also by Standard Process — Canine Hepatic Support. The liver can become overstressed in a kd dog.

I HIGHLY recommend only using reverse osmosis or distilled along with a mineral water like Evian. Mineral waters (only those lower in sodium) have shown some positive benefits to kidney patients.

Also try to eliminate as many chemical toxins from your house as possible. I was already living in a relatively toxin free environment but I had to eliminate my Swiffer mop, candles ets. These have chemicals in them that the kidneys have to filter — putting an extra strain on them OR adding to the blood poisoning when the kidneys can’t filter as well. DO NOT use flea/tick or heartworm meds on her. And DO NOT vaccinate her. Audrey has only had one set of shots (given by the breeder before I got her) and has NEVER had a rabies shot. She was diagnosed before getting the shot and I was able to get a lifelong exemption for her in my state.

As mentioned, Audrey turned 7 last month and is not on any medications (no phosphorus binders, no sub-q fluids etc) just the supplements.

I don’t use it but I know others that have had positive results with the herbal tinctures from Five Leaf Pharmacy. http://caninekidneyhealth.com/ I would NOT follow their diet though… 🙂 http://caninekidneyhealth.com/

I would also highly recommend reading the material on Mary Straus’ dog aware website. This is the site where I got most of my knowledge / as well as courage to continue feeding Audrey a high protein raw diet. She has some EXCELLENT info on the site — when to feed low protein, when to lower phosphorus and how much (phosphorus is an essential mineral – lowering it too much too early can have unintended consequences), which foods are lower in phosphorus etc. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

Your puppy can still have a fantastic quality of life.. Learn as much as you can, stay positive and enjoy her fully!!!!!

If you ever want to chat offsite, I can be reached at shawnadfaemail @ yahoo. com (take out the spaces–they are included here to prevent robot spammers from sending me junk mail).. 🙂

[Lagotto]

Hi Shawna, my 10 weeks old Lagotto has just been diagnosed with serious kidneys problems her BUN is way off chart her urine is almost as clear as water . She drinks over a liter of water a day. I have her for 21/2 weeks she hardly gains any weight. She is taller but very thin. The breeder offered to take her back and put her down. Apart from excessive drinking and urinating and not put on weight she is full of energy and really playful.I decided to keep her,the vet didn’t recommend any diet plan for her just told her to let she eats normal food, she eats puppies musli mix with raw met and let nature take it course. Her musli comprise of roll oats, dehydrate pea, carrot, bone meal plus all essential vitamins and minerals. Since she has been diagnosed I stop feeding her those food and go on low protein, low phosphorus, low sodium,. She got her appetite back with the meal I made which is 1 cup cooked white rice with one whole egg, two eggs whites, a spoonful of low fat ground beef. Cook in 1 Tb coconut oil. I sprinkle one capsule of fish oil, and grind 900mg of calcium carbonate to it. She has been eating this food for 3 days. Her weight is up for almost 200 g. I am not sure this diet is good enough for her growth. I ask the vet or phosphorus binder and start to sprinkle on her food. The vet now recommend pediatric junior digest & dental 29. I mixed a little of the dry food into home cooked . Her water intake is almost double her usual high intake. Your Audrey story is really inspiring . What do you feed Audrey? Home cooked or dry food.what is your strategy with Toilet train?

Many thanks, Lagotto

[Pizza Garlic]

My dog passed away last month because of CHF. The cardiologist suggested low sodium diet and the use of fatty acid, such as Salmon fish oil, as the supplement. Omega 3 & Omega 6 should be in the right proportion. I have also made nutritive consultation and the consultant suggested Salmon oil (in pill form) and L-Carnitine. My vet also recommended “Rx Vitamins – Formula CV”. Hawthorn is helpful too.

My dog was fed with “Karma” kibble which has a low sodium level of 0.06, you may also find the others as follows:
– Natura – Innova Low Fat Adult 0.12
– Natura – Senior Dry Dog Food 0.11
– Hills Prescription h/d (It was recommended by vet, but I really dislike it and stopped it, and used Karma instead) 0.07

I saw from books that the following dog foods also have low sodium level:
– Purina CNM Canine NF-Formula 0.22
– Select Care Canine Modified Formula 0.28
– MediCal Cardio 0.17
Hope you find the information helpful.

Best wishes for your dog!!

[neezerfan]

Hi! I have a couple of questions.
I’ve been feeding my dog Darwin’s, rotating with canned and giving RMBs about twice a week. I want to start feeding home prepared raw in place of the canned. So…
1. If I buy the grinds from Hare Today, they come in 3 lbs size? My dog is 12 lbs. He eats about 1/3 of a pound of Darwin’s a day. Once I defrost the grind package, will it go bad before I use it up?
2. If I get a grind with bone, is there a premix to use with that? I think all the ones I find are for boneless meat. I don’t want to use synthetic vitamins if possible.
3. I always thought both goat and rabbit were more bony than meaty, if you know what I mean. If I feed that, should I add in extra boneless meat?
4. Rabbit heads…As I said, my dog is 12 lbs, will they be too big for him? He does well with chicken necks, turkey neck pieces, ox tails and pork ribs so far. He’s a good chewer, not a gulper.
Thanks for your help!

[pugmomsandy]

Be sure that your using recipes for making a nutritionally complete food. Feeding an unbalanced homemade food is worse than feeding kibble as it will be nutritionally deficient in certain vitamins, minerals, trace elements and omega fatty acids that are required for a healthy dog.

/choosing-dog-food/karen-becker-best-worst-dog-food/

There are many recipe books available. And also DogAware.com has a homemade diet section. Nature’s Logic has a food supplement and there is also Missing Link.

I use “Real Foods for Healthy Dogs and Cats” 3rd Edition by Becker/Shaw. Another good read is “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’ve never heard of this food but I can say that nothing can be “better than raw” and if a food isn’t cooked it’s raw. Upon visiting the webpage – there’s some stuff seriously off. As Sandy noted, the numbers simply do not add up. The % protein, % fat and % carbohydrates on a dry matter basis cannot total over 100%. They also state “all naturally occurring vitamins and minerals” – yet the food contains a long listed of added synthetic vitamins and minerals. I also can’t locate any information on their site explaining how the food is processed. Is it raw? Is it high pressure processed? Is it cooked? There’s just so much stuff on their site, I’m might try to sift through some of it but something just seems off to me.

[Hound Dog Mom]

While high lipase levels don’t always indicate pancreatitis – when they’re that high (3X the normal or greater) it usually is an indication of pancreatitis. By “latent” I’m assuming that the vet is saying it’s underlying chronic pancreatitis that hasn’t flared up yet. Your vet didn’t give you any dietary recommendations – such as a certain level of fat to shoot for? I wouldn’t say you need to quit feeding raw but you should closely monitor his fat intake. The fat levels should be very low (I’d say around 10%) – which can be difficult to find in a raw diet. The OC Raw Fish & Produce formula is pretty low in fat at 12% and the Goat & Produce is only 9%. Another option would be to purchase some lean meat (heart, poultry gizzards, 96% lean ground beef or turkey, whitefish, etc.) and add it to a pre-mix to create a balanced raw meal that is also low in fat. There are some dehydrated foods with low fat levels as well if this is something you’d be open to – The Honest Kitchen’s Zeal (9%), Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Chicken (9%), Sojo’s Turkey Complete (8%), Sojo’s Beef Complete (8%), Addiction’s Perfect Summer Brushtail (10%), Addiction’s Outback Kangaroo Feast (8%), Addiction’s Steakhouse Beef & Zucchini (8%), Addiction’s Fig’licious Venison Feast (10%). If you aren’t familiar with “dehdyrated foods” – they’re essentially a raw diet that has had the moisture removed, you add water let it stand for a few minutes and it rehydrates to a similar consistency of fresh raw. Dehydrated foods aren’t truly in a “raw” state after the dehydration process (the meats are generally heated to a high enough temperature to kill bacteria) but they are much less processed than kibble and probably the next best thing to raw. I would definitely keep him on digestive enzymes (make sure it contains lipase) and probiotics. I would also recommend supplementing with a pancreas glandular. You may also want to talk with your vet about whether or not your dog could benefit from some additional fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) and, if yes, in what amounts – when a dog isn’t metabolizing fat properly (such as with pancreatitis) they may not be absorbing adequate amounts of these vitamins. I know some other here have had dogs with pancreatitis so hopefully they’ll have more to contribute. Good luck.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Rdelmedico]

This is what Publix had to say:
Our pet food is produced here in the US by Mars Petcare in TN. The manufacturer informed me that they source their ingredients from the United States using suppliers located near their manufacturing facility when possible. While this is the case for most of their ingredients, some of their vitamins and minerals must be sourced from Asia. To ensure they receive high-quality ingredients, all of their suppliers must comply with their strict and thorough Supplier Quality Assurance program and undergo frequent quality audits. Their products are made with some of the highest quality standards in the industry, and their manufacturing plants perform more than 600 Quality & Food Safety checks daily.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi lemdem –

Glad you found this thread helpful 🙂

Nutro Max LBP and Whole Earth Farms are both too high in calcium for a LBP. I have no idea about the Purina/Pedigree products, I’ve never looked into them as they’re not something I’d ever recommend. I would assume that a “large breed puppy” formula manufactured by Purina would have appropriate calcium levels though, so if someone wanted to feed a cheap brand I’d probably (reluctantly)recommend going with a Purina LBP formula. However, I honestly doubt that anyone considering feeding their pup something such as Beneful or Pedigree would have any concern for proper growth and prevention of developmental orthopedic disease. I wouldn’t ever recommend feeding an adult food to a puppy – an “all life stages” formula is fine, but not a formula labeled for “maintenance” (check the AAFCO statement on the bag because some “adult” foods are actually approved for all life stages” – meaning that they’re essentially a puppy formula). Maintenance foods are generally too low in protein and fat for a puppy (and also – imo – for adult dogs) and can be too low in certain vitamins and minerals for a growing dog. Due to the lower calorie content found in most adult formulas (in comparison to puppy or all life stages formulas), a pup may actually end up consuming more calcium per calorie even if the calcium percentage by weight is lower. Very young puppies could also have difficulty meeting their energy needs on a low calorie adult formula.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Nosh –

I read the recent article about the study released on the UC Davis press release page and I have a lot of questions about this study and issues with the findings. For anyone who wants to read the original press release: news(dot)ucdavis(dot)edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10666. Also, I’m going to apologize ahead of time because this is going to get kind of “ranty” (not toward you, but toward the study and subsequent articles).

1) I would like to see these “200 recipes” they analyzed. Where were they coming from? I know some were formulated by veterinarians, but what about the rest? I’ve come across many recipes on websites, in forums, even published in books by unqualified individuals that are horribly unbalanced. In fact, I recently came across a commercially prepared cooked food being sold as “complete and balanced” that only contained meat and no calcium!

2) They reported that even some of the recipes formulated by veterinarians had a least one deficiency. What does this tell us about the nutrition-related education that vets receive? That it’s inadequate! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to feed a person and it shouldn’t take one to feed a dog either. It’s not that complicated.

3) This study is not taking into consideration the main philosophy of homemade diets: Balance over time. Is each meal that you eat 100% balanced with every vitamin, mineral and amino acid your body requires? Does each meal you eat have the ideal fat to protein to carbohydrate ratio? What about the ideal omega 3 to omega 6 ratio? I doubt it! People eat varied diets, for this reason we receive all the nutrients we need by eating a variety of healthy foods. People that eat a varied healthy don’t don’t require synthetic vitamin/mineral supplements and, in fact, it is advised not to take multivitamins unless absolutely necessary as synthetic vitamins are linked to a myriad of health issues. Why should a dog’s diet be any different? Most people that feed homemade diets don’t worry about making each meal 100% balanced – they feed a variety of fresh and species-appropriate foods and over the course of a few days or a week everything balances out (as with people) and the dog receives all the nutrients it needs. Yes, there does need to be some basic understanding of a dog’s nutrient requirements, however variety is the most important thing.

I can say this – I have fed my dogs a homemade diet for about two years now. I don’t use any synthetic vitamins and minerals. My dogs are healthier than ever. I had bloodwork done on two of my dogs after they had been on homemade for about 6 months to test for nutrient deficiencies and they had none. I have ran a full nutrient analysis on some of my recipes using the USDA’s nutrient database and found that my recipes exceed the AAFCO’s nutrient requirements for growth and reproduction (the more stringent of the two nutrient requirements). For those that don’t have the knowledge to create a balanced homemade diet from scratch, there are several pre-mixes on the market designed to make a homemade diet complete and balanced. My favorite is “See Spot Liver Longer Dinner Mix.”

This study and press release is nothing short of a scare tactic designed to steer pet owners toward commercial foods. They could very well have chosen numerous obviously unbalanced recipes from questionable sources for the study. The problem here is the vets, not homemade food. They need to become educated in how to instruct their clients to make balanced and healthy homemade meals for their animals. To have that level of education and not able to make a balanced meal for a dog is inexcusable and just plain sad. They recommend that only recipes formulated by veterinary nutritionists are used. Really? Do mothers need to spend 8 years in college and then do a nutritional residency before being able to feed their child? What a joke.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[weimlove]

Hi everyone, I’m thinking about feeding my puppy and adult dog primarily blue ridge beef products, as well as added veggies and vitamins. Anyone ever used blue ridge? Any thoughts? Thanks!

[pugmomsandy]

Don’t be too mad at yourself. Who really knows anything about dog food or dog nutrition! You definitely don’t learn it in school and the vet definitely doesn’t teach you anything. They only only give you what they sell. Not all, some vets.

Any ingredient can be an allergen to your dog. It could be the corn or the animal protein or other ingredient. For grains, there is always a possibility of contamination with insects and molds and some grains have gluten which if your dog is sensitive or has developed a sensitivity to gluten, then you’ll need to take it out of his diet. If a dog eats the same food for so long, he can develop a sensitivity even though he might not have had a problem before.

Check out http://www.dogtorJ.com regarding gluten intolerance

Also in the other side of dogfoodadvisor in the Library, search for “grain” and some articles come up about some grain related diseases.

For kibble, it’s hard to say if any probiotics survive the kibble making process so I would suggest adding your own probiotic supplement which Dr Langers (as InkedMarie mentioned above) is on sale right now buy 1, get 1 at swansonvitamins.com!

Info on probiotics:

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

Actually I have Mercola and Dr Langers probiotcs and Mercola digestive enzymes. I highly suggest both products (even if you only use them for a couple months) to get his digestive system/immune system on the right track. I give these to all my dogs and my 14 yr old fosters has great digestion/poop! And I just got him in late January at age 14.

Some of my other pug friends (which pugs can be an allergy prone breed) have had success with giving a colostrum supplement and a quercetin supplement for allergies.

You can also see other Dr Karen Becker videos on youtube or at the mercola.com site.

[InkedMarie]

I missed your questions. Did you do a gradual change from the old food to the NV or an abrupt transition? Chicken is a protein that I can be a high allergen for some dogs. Try a different protein. You can also add probiotics (I use human Dr Langers from Swanson vitamins), digestive enzymes (I use dog ones from Mercola healthy pets)…. You can try canned pumpkin, plain, not the one with spices.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Looks good! 🙂 With the multi all your bases should be covered. You could add small amounts of fruits/veggies, dairy or eggs a few times a week if you wanted (although it wouldn’t be necessary with the multi and green food supplement). The coconut oil definitely won’t throw anything off – my dogs get coconut oil daily. If you didn’t want to go the multi route – supplementing with e, giving a capsule of cod liver oil daily or tinned sardines once or twice a week and giving some ground nuts/seeds a few times a week would probably create a fairly balanced recipe, given you’ll be rotating protein sources frequently. It definitely is possible to balance a recipe using whole foods, I just suggest s multi in the even someone doesn’t want to go through the hassle. If you do want to go the multi route (and you probably could get away with just adding the multi every other day) some reasonably priced multivitamins that would work – Twinlab Daily One or Duel Tabs, NOW Foods Liquid Multi Gels, Swanson also has a daily multi.

[mah4angel]

Hello all!

So I decided to create a separate topic here on the supplements forum specifically to ask for suggestions for a cheap human multi with no calcium that would be safe/acceptable for dogs. I’m working on getting my Louie on a 100% raw diet but HDM pointed out that the recipe I have will be deficient in certain vitamins (d and e) and minerals (manganese) so I’d like to supplement with a multi. Here’s what I plan on feeding:

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protain sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement
Omega-3 source (salmon oil, whole sardines, etc.)
No-calcium multi
Possibly organic virgin coconut oil if it doesn’t throw everything off

Evenings:
RMB’s

I don’t know that this is adequate but, it’s what I’ve got so far 😀

[Michelle]

I also need to watch the fat content…I think that’s why Summer didn’t do so well with her inflammation when I was feeding based off of body weight. So, I know pork tenderloin and sirloin, fish (which I will cook) and some cuts of beef are leaner…I will have to use those. No just buying whatever is the cheapest. I’ll have to check out those pre-mixes – I did try one of THK’s about a year ago…Summer didn’t like it at all. And the person I worked with to balance the diets is a stickler for getting the correct amount of minerals/vitamins…so in that person’s eyes any other type of protein will throw the whole diet off kilter. I really don’t agree with that whole way of thinking either. Thanks!!

[mah4angel]

What multivitamin would you recommend, HDM? I found this one: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/natures-answer-multiple-vitamins-8-fl-oz-liquid and I like that it’s liquid and that it has no calcium. And I also found this glandular supplement: https://www.swansonvitamins.com/natural-sources-raw-multiple-60-caps
Is there anything store bought that you personally recommend for supplementation? Especially a multi?

[pugmomsandy]

Also, here’s an article about detoxing. Some believe and some don’t.

http://www.thewholedog.org/artHealingCrisis.html

also gut health info:

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

There’s a buy 1, get 1 sale going on right now at Swansonvitamins.com for Dr Langers Probiotics!!

[Hershy]

Hello, again, HDM,
Still searching for the best food to meet quality for a price I can afford. Have ruled out the Kirkland-wasn’t happy with many reviews I read. Wellness Core Puppy is on your list of favorite foods in the “grain free” list.
Do you know yet if Wellness Large Breed Puppy will be on your Grain inclusive list? Calcium (min) is nice and low. I’m leaning toward this one for now. Also wondered what the asterisk comment means relating to food quality. “Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO…” – do they mean these ingredients are of no benefit for the puppy, and a waste to add, or maybe amount of it not enough of to do the job? I realize they are not the bare bones nutrients a dog needs, but why do they put this on the bag? Seems the comment would be more useful on the bag that does NOT have these ingredients? ; ). I think I’m giving this way too much thought..

Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Deboned Whitefish, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Peas, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Salmon Meal (a natural source of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Tomatoes, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil (a natural source of DHA – Docosahexaenoic Acid), Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Salt, Minerals [Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement], Choline Chloride, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation products
Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min.) 26.0%, Crude Fat (min.) 12.0%, Crude Fiber (max.) 4.5%, Moisture (max.) 11.0%, Calcium (min.) 1.0%, Phosphorus (min.) .90%, Vitamin E (min.) 150IU, Omega 6* (min.) 2.5%, Omega 3* (min.) .50%, DHA .137#37;, Beta-Carotene* (min.) 5 mg/kg, Lycopene* (min.) .25 mg/kg, Taurine* (min.) .09%, Total Micro-Organisms* (min.) 20,000,000 CFU/lb. *Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Hershy.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Hershy.

[Hershy]

Thank you, HDM!
All was very helpful – I really appreciate your feedback on the dog foods, and also, the calculations for figuring the grams per 1000Kcal. I couldn’t get my head around it, but now I’m back, thanks to your detailed lesson. : ). I’ll keep reading. So many very interesting and helpful posts. I’m sure I’ll be back with other questions, too, particularly regarding the raw food diet. I was feeding my 4 big dogs a raw diet before Charlotte was bred. Also giving them a daily vitamin supplement tablet (which was most likely not the best form of those vitamins and minerals…and maybe I didn’t even need it) I have a lot to learn about it, but I’m thinking that what they were getting was WAY better than the processed foods available. I stopped at the time of pregnancy due to lack of confidence for what gestating pups should get, as well as the lack of time to prepare it. My dogs ate as well as we did at that time. I had fun shopping for bargains – only buying proteins I could find for less than $1/lb. I was surprised at how often those were available so I could stock up : ). But that is another topic and another forum… so finding the best kibble I can is very important to me for my guy and gals.

Thanks, again-

[marmarx89]

I’ve been wanting to start my Louie on a raw diet for awhile, he has been on kibble and his stools have always been soft and I just didn’t feel like he was getting the best nutrition possible. I’ve been reading so much on feeding raw and all the benefits and I’m so excited to start it with him. I originally was going to feed commercial frozen raw, I bought a bag of the Primal Venison nuggets, but with his size (58.5lbs) he would go through 3 bags a week of that stuff ($90/week). So I started researching the Raw Prey Model and that seemed more feasible. Ive just started shopping around for everything, but I had a couple of questions I was hoping to run by you guys. I think I may have spent a little too much time creeping on here already, I feel like I already know everyone and their dogs haha. Anyway, I was wondering first how long you freeze your meats when you buy them in the store. I read that for the pork it has to be for at least 2 weeks but what about other meats? Also, in terms of adding the vitamins and supplements is that a necessity or just depends on what you like to feed? Im thinking of including some vegetables to his diet, do they have to be cooked first and pureed? or are raw vegetables allowed. Finally, the addition of vitamins/minerals that some people include in their diets are those something that I should definitely be including because of this type of diet or its just more a personal preference type of thing. Thanks in advance for any answers.

[Hound Dog Mom]

hi mah4angel –

I have read mixed things about the safety of stevia for dogs and I personally would not risk feeding a stevia-containing product to any of my crew.

The Dr. Harvey’s supplement doesn’t contain vitamins and minerals so it wouldn’t take the place of a multivitamin. It’s a whole food supplement that will contain some trace nutrients and immune boosters.

Looking at what you plan on feeding I would recommend adding a multi – what’s standing out to me right off it that it would be deficient in vitamin d, vitamin e and probably manganese or you would want to add whole foods that would supply these nutrients. Dairy, raw sardines and cod liver oil are high in vitamin d. Nuts and seeds are high in manganese. Wheat germ oil, certain nuts and seeds and some cage free eggs are rich in vitamin e but I personally prefer supplementing with this vitamin to ensure adequate amounts.

[pugmomsandy]

HDM uses Swanson’s glandulars and so far I’ve used Pet GO. It is made up of body glands that aren’t normally available at the store. If you feed a whole prey then you would get these glands. I just give intermittenly, like all the other supplements.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go.html

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/natural-sources-raw-multiple-60-caps

[mah4angel]

Yeah, when I was lying in bed after doing my research on the vitamins I was thinking of alternating between the two supplements for variety. I just wasn’t sure if that would a good balance over time so yay 🙂
I actually only feed once a day because it’s easier on me (because, again, I’m lazy haha) so I would probably alternate every day or every other day.
What glandular supplement is recommended? I’ve seen a few mentioned, but I’m not 100% sure where lol. How would I include a glandular supplement (every day, every other day) and would that be something else to alternate between multiple formulas? Also, what does a glandular supplement consist of? And, what does it do, exactly (I’m thinking it supports the body’s glands but that’s a tiny bit vague lol)?

[mah4angel]

Also, the Young Again supplement specifically states not to supplement with anything else.

Also, should I be adding anything to the future menu? Is it missing anything essential? I’m sure it’s missing some vitamins and minerals.
1/2 cup raw whole grind (alternating between chicken, beef, pork, etc.)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Some sort of fruit/vegetable supplement (for antioxidants and vitamins)
Some sort of omega-3 supplement (fish oil, whole fish, etc.)
RMB’s

[mah4angel]

Do you think Dr. Harvey’s would be the best of both worlds as far as supplementation? It has both vitamins and super foods, whereas as the Young Again has more vitamins and the Daily Greens has more super foods.
Because I’ll be adding green tripe into his diet (within the next week, hopefully), it seems that he won’t really need the added probiotics, enzymes, or fiber that the Young Again product offers.
The Daily Greens is essentially what I was looking for but now I’m wondering if that’ll all be enough or if I would also need to add a multivitamin or something. AH idk 🙁

[mah4angel]

I also had questions about supplementation with vegetables and with fish oil!
Costco has Wild Alaskan Salmon oil pills (not in the pump like they have at Pet Smart), would these be okay? Coated or uncoated? Do I poke a hole in them and squeeze out the oil? How many mg’s of omega-3’s and 6’s does he need (what should I look for on the label as far as levels are concerned with a supplement like this)?
I also found some Herbacil Artichoke Dietary Supplement at Target, it’s in a little bottle/vile thingy in liquid form, I guess, and it contains artichoke, grapefruit, fennel, prickly pear, apple cider vinegar, and L-Carnitine. What fruit/vegetable supplements would you guys recommend? I just sort of didn’t feel right about the Herbacil (idk, I guess I was looking for something with more superfoods?), and it was a little pricey. I also had no idea how much I should be adding to his food. Maybe a powdered supplement would be better?

Right now, here’s what I’m doing for Louie:
1/2 cup raw whole chicken grind
1/2 tablespoon of golden flax (for fiber and a little extra omega-3’s and 6’s)
1/2 tablespoon of low fat plain yogurt (enzymes/probiotics)
1/2 cup of Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural (I’ve kept this in so far because I have yet to figure out my supplementation and this formula has omega-3 sources (fish) very high up on the ingredient list as well as fruits and vegetables… Also, it wasn’t cheap to buy and I still have quite a bit left)

I’m hoping to get here:
1/2 cup raw whole grind (alternating between chicken, beef, pork, etc.)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Some sort of fruit/vegetable supplement (for antioxidants and vitamins)
Some sort of omega-3 supplement (fish oil, whole fish, etc.)
RMB’s: I was giving him pork necks (which were GREAT, he LOVED them!!) but then my mother-in-law cooked them -___________- So now I’ll have to go out and somehow find pork necks for him and freeze them for 3 weeks before I can start giving them to him again, or find some chicken necks or something comparable for his size (he’s a little silky; 10 pounds)
I believe everyone said that I wouldn’t need to add any fiber, enzymes or probiotics because of the green tripe, but I’d like to be sure. Also, any fruit/vegetable supplement should contain fiber, anyway.

Your advice, as always, is much appreciated!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by mah4angel.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’d personally want to give a multi with a recipe like that. Just a small dose for assurance. Maybe 1/4 – 1/2 of a human once daily type multi vitamin/mineral – especially for cooked food as some nutrients are lost during the cooking process. Steve Brown has a great “pre-mix” that’s very reasonably priced and would give you the assurance of knowing the meal is balanced. I believe one bag is enough for 26 lbs. of meat (or somewhere around there) and it only comes up to around $11 a bag if you buy a six pack. A cooked recipe like that could definitely be balanced without multivitamins, but it would take a lot more ingredients than that. It also really comes down to variety. I mean no this recipe probably isn’t completely balanced, but if you’re feeding a very wide variety of foods at each meal it would likely balance over time.

[somebodysme]

I am giving her cod liver oil, the jury is still out on coconut oil as it seemed as if when I gave it to her, her eyes started to water. But I’m going to stop using it until all is clear and add one thing at a time. Also the 1/2 of a sardine seemed to cause her eyes to water…UGH. She’s on so many vitamins and stuff I’m going to have to get another vitamin/pill holder for all her pills…HAHA!

[jeffsoufan]

I recently changed my Great Dane’s diet from Pro Pac performance puppy to Dr.Clauder’s junior Large/Giant.
The reason i changed is because i found that the ingredients in Dr.Clauder is better, since it contains raw protein(26%), raw fat(15%), raw fibers(2.5%), raw ash(6%), calcium(0.95%)… and the vitamins are vitamin A,D3,E,B1,B2,B6,B12,C as well as biotin,zinc,selenium and couple of other things.
Does anyone have any idea about this brand? Its German made.
I need to know if it is good for my 4month old great dane.

Thanks alot
Jeff

[theBCnut]

Raw meat has digestive enzymes in it, enough for your dog to make up the rest. If you find after being off of the digestive enzymes for a few days one of them starts to have really stinky gas, then add digestive enzymes to that ones food. Micah will always get enzymes for that reason, he just needs the extra help. Yes, Swansons has many that are good. This one is fine.
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-premium-digestive-enzymes-180-tabs

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by theBCnut.

[theBCnut]

When using a premix, use what the premix says to use, usually boneless meats from the store. The only thing I would worry about adding to a premix that it might not sat is omega 3s, everything else should be in there, and the omega 3s might be, but they are very sensitive to degradation.

Fresh from the store should be parasite free, I still freeze pork, just in case. Also, if you know any hunters and get meat from them, that needs to be frozen first.

As long as the expired stuff has not defrosted and been refrozen, I would feed it. Just be aware that some of the vitamins may have degraded and don’t feed solely it for a long period.

[mah4angel]

Okay!

And the other things I might want to add would be fiber and vitamins? What about fruit?

(Sorry, just wanting to clarify) 😀

[pugmomsandy]

Those sound good. I also give astaxanthin and a supplement with Transfer Factor (currently Immunel with Transfer Factor from Swansonvitamins.com).

You also don’t want to give her or at least space them out for longer intervals (45 days) heartworm prevention and flea/tick meds because those are pesticides and add to her toxic load. Also don’t walk her in or let her play in areas that have been sprayed with pesticides. Also use a non toxic shampoo. I think good examples are Earthbath and Green Bulldog and I’m sure there are several more.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Tripe is loaded with probiotics and enzymes so I wouldn’t add those. You can add veggies and vitamins to balance the meal though. Or if you’re not feeding it as the sole diet and your dog’s other meals are balanced you could certainly feed it for a few meals a week on its own without throwing anything off – tripe is a pretty well rounded food.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[mah4angel]

Thanks! pugmomsandy, so, I shouldn’t add anything to the green tripe? Or I shouldn’t add any other protein source? I’m pretty sure I should add veggies and fiber/probiotics/enzymes/vitamins, no?